New attic ladder

[jackiew]

Bit of advice needed here.

A couple of weeks ago I had a new loft inspection hatch made and an attic ladder fitted ... the existing hatch was in a cupboard over the bath - and required one to be a contortionist to get into it.

I hummed and hahed about doing it myself and decided that there was a better than evens chance I'd stuff it up and even if I didn't it would probably take me about 5 times as long as someone who'd done one before. The company supplying the ladder charged quite a lot for fitting but I figured at least they'd know what they were doing .... ha ha.

The fitter turned up about an hour late, having phoned to say he was unwell but declined my offer to postpone the job until later. He didn't bring everything with him and had to duck out to get timber half way through. By the time he'd finished my morning off of work had stretched to mid afternoon so I did a quick check over of the job and it all seemed ok.

The following weekend in full daylight ( no light up in the attic ) I inspected the work and spotted that one of the cut rafters didn't meet one of the new pieces of wood he'd inserted to make a rectangular frame by about 7mm - both nails were clearly visible in the gap. I wasn't very pleased with this. Had two goes at contacting the company and am still waiting for them to get back to me to discuss it. In the meantime I had another look at the job and discovered that the rectangular framework that the ladder mounts in doesn't actually fit in the rectangular hole he made in my ceiling. He's fitted it flush on two sides ( i.e. pushed hard into the corner of the hole ) .. on the other two sides there is a gap of around 2centimetres - the screws holding the ladder framework to the hole framework are ( of course ) clearly visible - and some of them are actually on the diagonal. Who knows how much thread is actually in the hole framework.

Q1. Am I being unreasonable in believing that this guy has completely bodged the job.

Q2. What should I be asking them to do to rectify the situation. It seems to me that putting packing in the gaps and screwing through the packing is one solution ?

[kenmil]

Jackie,

Another "tradesman quality" job. Sounds like he has messed this up, but the question to ask yourself is - does this represent a structural/safety risk or is it purely cosmetic ? If it can't be seen without climbing inside the roof and there are no rsisks involved, then it probably doesn't matter too much, though I would still ask the company to come out and look at it.

[jackiew]

I think my biggest worry is what happens if, for instance I accidentally ( or some future purchaser of the house ) step on the rafter or the edge of the ladder framework and the nails/screws pull out/bend. Its a 3.25 metre drop to the ground. Agreed the risk is probably low but the company charges a premium for their "experienced" fitters so as far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be a risk at all. The fact that they haven't got back to me despite two attempts to get someone to discuss this is, in my opinion, unacceptable.

I have a letter written which I'm intending to send so they have to sign for receiving it but I wanted to check that i'm not being unreasonable first.

[Bob Willson]

The company supplying the ladder charged quite a lot for fitting

No, you are not being unreasonable. You paid a premium price to have the job done in a workmanlike manner. If, as you say, there are major defects with the job, then the company should make good any defects at their own expense.

Even cosmetically speaking, the job should still be pleasing to the eye.

[echnidna]

You have already been very reasonable towards the company as you have tried to discuss the matter with them twice.

As there is a risk factor the best course for you is to ask the Council Building surveyor for assistance. Council's role is to ensure that building works meet a minimum standard.

[kenmil]

Jackie,
I am still trying to visualise your problem, but it sounds like it is a safety risk, so you are quite entitled to demand it be fixed. As Bob #1 said, you have paid good money for a professional job.

[journeyman Mick]

I can't visualise it but if you have concerns the company should address them. Certainly if fitting a ladder I would pack the frame to the opening to minimise movement, plus I would use batten screws rather than nails.

Mick

[Taffy]

Jackie
Nothing unreasonable about expecting what you have paid for.
I had one of these fitted in Brissy a couple of years ago, I also paid for the company to install it, they arrived on time took an hour to fit and the job is good.
Make the buggers come back and fix it or go to any authority that will listen. The fitter being "off colour" on the day of installation is not your concern, the company has a responsibility to provide suitable expertise and are probably liable if someone should get hurt from shoddy workmanship.

Go get em
Taffy

[jackiew]

thanks guys, I feel a bit more confident of my ground now sending my letter requesting that they finish the job properly.

Reading the original post I realise that I made a complete mess of describing the problem.

I did draw a pretty picture of the problem but my scanner has just chosen to expire I found a picture of a loft ladder on the internet which I will attempt to attach!!

As you can see the ladder is attached to a rectangular framework which they supply with the ladder. They then cut a hole in the ceiling and chop out any existing roof timbers ( its not a truss roof ) that cross the hole, and fit extra timbers so that the cut timbers aren't just dangling there in the wind. The supplied wooden framework is meant to fit snuggly into the new hole with timber on all four sides of it which it is screwed in to. I.e. there is a rectangle of timber sitting inside another rectangle of timber and inside that is the hole.

So my issue is that

1. he cut one of the roof timbers shorter than the others so that when he tried to fix a piece of timber across the ends of all the cut timbers it doesn't touch it at all. He could have cut the longer ones to the same length as the short ones but that would have left him with an even bigger hole that the one he actually made. Rather than pack the gap he just banged the nails in as if the two pieces of wood actually met and left the nails visible for about 7mm

2. And the inside wooden framework doesn't touch the outer framework on all 4 sides but only on two of them. On the other two sides there is a 2cm gap between the inner and outer framework with the screws which he used passing through first the inner framework, then the gap ( some of them diagonally ) and then finally screwing into the timber of the outer framework. Which means that there is 2cm+ of screw thread visible in the gap (when viewed from above). And although I havent unscrewed one to check I'm willing to bet they barely penetrate the timber of the outer framework.

You can't see the bloody great gap from underneath because the fitter nailed a wide architrave to the ceiling around the hole - which is why I didn't spot the problem first off.

[journeyman Mick]

Jackie,
from your description it sounds very much like you should be jumping up and down about the job that was done. The outer timber framework (trimmers) is there to preserve the structural integrity of the ceiling as well as supporting the ladder. The trimmers should be a neat fit to the cut members and the ladder frame should be a neat fit to the trimmers. Tell them you want it fixed! If they don't want to do it ask them to give a written confirmation that it is all structurally adequate and that their insurance will cover any damage, injury or loss of income - that should get them moving. I don't know how people can do sub-standard work, especially on structural items. I know I would be losing sleep big time if I left a job like this.

Mick

[MrFixIt]

Originally posted by jackiew
Bit of advice needed here.

The following weekend in full daylight ( no light up in the attic ) I inspected the work and spotted that one of the cut rafters didn't meet one of the new pieces of wood he'd inserted to make a rectangular frame by about 7mm - both nails were clearly visible in the gap. I wasn't very pleased with this.

Hi Jackiew

AFAIK, these attic ladders are designed to go BETWEEN rafters. This way, they do not really compromise on the "structural" strength of the ceiling.

I was fortunate to obtain an attic ladder free. I fitted it into the roof space via the garage ceiling. Unfortunately this meant the ladder was to short (as the garage ceiling is higher). Anyway I made two longer stringers and put in another step. In other respects the ladder was almost a slip fit between the rafters. I added a noggin to which the top of the ladder fitted, and cut out a small recess in the rafter either side, to accept the pivot mechanism. The ladder works great!

I would recommend that you contact the supplier and have it checked out and any problems recified at no charge to yourself.

Kind regards

Peter

[jackiew]

you're right Peter, ideally the ladder would go between the rafters - although with the 430mm spacing in my roof it wouldn't have been possible even if the layout of the rooms in the house would have given me enough space to fit it. Unfortunately with a 3.25 m ceiling height the only ladders I could find were the sort that are hinged in two places and have to be unfolded ( which seems to take heaps of room ). I would much have preferred the type which are more like a normal extension ladder and pull down from the roof space in sections.

I rang the company again this morning before sending my letter and actually got someone who wasn't a receptionist. They are coming out tomorrow to inspect it ( i.e. not sending a tradesman who can actually do anything but their sales guy ). I anticipate a bit of an argument as I was told over the phone that "it doesn't sound like a problem". Reinforced with mick's info I shall hold my ground.

[duckman]

Originally posted by MrFixIt
AFAIK, these attic ladders are designed to go BETWEEN rafters. This way, they do not really compromise on the "structural" strength of the ceiling.

That's great if you're able to install the ladder parallel to the ceiling joists, but many of us cannot.

Cutting the joists and then trimming the opening thus created is not normally a big deal as its usual to install attic ladders in small rooms or hallways so the cj's aren't spanning a great distance.

Cya,

[duckman]

Originally posted by jackiew
Bit of advice needed here.

I inspected the work and spotted that one of the cut rafters didn't meet one of the new pieces of wood he'd inserted to make a rectangular frame by about 7mm - both nails were clearly visible in the gap.

Shoddy work, but unless the ceiling joists are spanning a large distance unlikely to cause a problem for you.

He's fitted it flush on two sides ( i.e. pushed hard into the corner of the hole ) .. on the other two sides there is a gap of around 2centimetres

The gap should have been packed, preferably with ply.

Q1. Am I being unreasonable in believing that this guy has completely bodged the job.

I wouldn't say from your description that he has completely botched the job, just some of it. )

Q2. What should I be asking them to do to rectify the situation. It seems to me that putting packing in the gaps and screwing through the packing is one solution ?

Correct. I bought an attic ladder from Kimberly Products, Moorabbin, Vic back in January this year, and installed it myself. (I'm a chippy BTW) If that's where your's came from the following might be of some help.

The installation instructions that came with it, stated clearly that any gap between the ladder frame and the opening should be packed. They do however suggest that nails can be used to the fix the ladder's frame to the ceiling opening, but there is no way I could bring myself to do that. I used batten screws and am very happy I did.

If your ladder is from the same importer you might like to go to their website and download the installation instructions. They are in Acrobat format.

A product brochure is also there, but what you want is the installation instructions. At least by reading what should have been done and comparing that with what was done, you can arm yourself with knowledge and go into the negotiations prepared.

Their website is http://www.kimprod.com.au/ladders.htm

Hope this helps,

[jackiew]

different company Duckman but wouldn't surprise me if it was the same ladder rebadged, cheers for the info about the instructions I shall download them for my homework before I do battle.