Temporary 457 visas for skilled migrants

[billbeee]

We keep reading in the papers about the skill shortage.
What caused it, why are we in the state of having to bring in guest workers from overseas to do our skilled work?
I can only speak for what I know, which is the building industry, but other industries must have similar problems. I reckon that it all boils down to the breakdown of the apprenticeship system. Which to my mind has been caused by-

• The forced rise of sub-contract labour. In the past, a young tradesman quits and goes working for himself. A natural state of things. This has been happening for hundreds of years. Many more of course carried on working for wages. Their choice and the system worked well enough.
• Then we got a shift in emphasis, when large companies like Civil and Civic were able to do multi-million dollar jobs totally with subbie labour. They hardly had a single tradesman on wages. Most workers on the job were classed as subbies, and had to take on the responsibility for their own insurance, holidays, tax, super, etc, saving the large employers millions.
• The true meaning of sub contract, as it applied to guys like me when we first got into it, was a contract to do a certain section of the work for a fixed lump sum price.
• The likes of Civil and Civic and Multiplex changed all that for ever. No doubt through pressure on the government and hence the tax department, the definition of sub contractor was changed to include workers on an hourly or piecework rates. They then proceeded to employ only self employed subbies, thus forcing the guys on wages to change. The result was that the tradesmen subbies who were screwed into the ground on prices, had neither the the time or inclination to hire and teach apprentices or trainees on the job.
• Naturally apprenticeship enrollments dropped so the government put in poor regulations to the effect that for every few $million of the contract price the contractor would have to employ an apprentice. What did the big companies do? They hired first year apprentices from apprentice pools and had them sweeping up and running errands all day, there was nobody employed to train them
• Small builders like myself who did employ apprentices, usually used a group apprenticeship scheme. Our MBA ran the one I used for a few years. At the end of it I had to stop employing apprentices because, say for a third year apprentice I had to pay something like $22.50 an hour charge out rate. This rate included the lad's time at school, insurance, holiday pay etc. At the very same time I could get a tradesman (subbie) carpenter with a trailer full of power tools for $27.00 an hour. Who would you choose?.
• While all this was happening, we got the other half of the double whammy. The powers that be in education decided in their wisdom to close down the manual skills workshops and put the emphasis into computer training.
• I have done a lot of work at a senior secondary school, that had a well set up metalworking shop, lathes, welding booths etc. all gathering dust. I would say it has been closed for 15 years. Almost the same with the woodworking shop. No more than half a dozen students. Ah! but they have four of five fully equipped computer labs.
• I firmly believe that the education system for many years now has been wrongly pushing up the average kids expectations. They have been taught to believe that a trade is somehow low on the list of occupations. How wrong they are.

I think we have lost more than a generation of potential tradesmen.

There has got to be a better way. It is fairly obvious that we can't go back to the old ways of doing things, but I think that both on job and off job training for young people is in a terrible state.

We are living in a rich country and yet we can't find the money to teach our kids well, at any level of education and training.

I for one, happen to think that a smart well educated younger generation is a better deal for our country's future survival, than half a dozen Collins class submarines.

I am fairly sure that Matt88s who started this thread on the cost and pressures of getting a uni education, would prefer like me, that our respective governments spent less money on overseas posturing, and put more into subsidising higher education.

Temporary 457 visas for skilled migrants. What have we come to, and what will be next?

End of rant.

Regards
Bill.

[AlexS]

Governments and private enterprise have usually shirked their responsibility to train young people coming into their industries.

I teach my 'real' profession to trainees across Australia. WA and Queensland govts. have excellent systems for their trainees. They must do the formal training, they are moved through the various types and location of work, and the quality of the work is noticeable right up the line.

In NSW there was such a system, but it broke down some years ago, so most young hydrographers working for the state govt. have no formal training. They learn their bosses bad habits on the job.

I recently pointed out to one of the senior people that in NSW, 50% of hydrographers will retire in the next 5 years, and that NSW would be in a pretty poor position compared to Qld & WA. The response? 'I wonder if any of them would be interested in coming down here?'

[q9]

The whole system of apprenticeships has been very wrong for a very long time. It is only now that they have even halfway bothered to try and "fix" it.

I remember very clearly wanting to become an apprentice electrician - at the age of 19. You guessed it, nobody was interested - too expensive in their view. These days, there are government subsidies available to make this possible, though even then they have a cut off age.

So basically you have a choice - leave school early at 16 and take an apprenticeship and severly limit future choices from thereon, or finish high school and have an archaic apprenticeship system reject you for being too old.

In my view apprenticeships need to be nearly entirely scrapped, and replaced with a system of 18 months full time study and technical/skills training, which is complemented by an 18 month industry placement.

[Brown Dog]

Its not just manual trades that are suffering a from a skills shortage problem. The large majority of skilled migrants coming into Australia are actually IT and highly educated white collar workers. The unions actually make it very difficult for tradesman to migrate using their trade as the basis for a visa application

So not only has the government dropped the ball in regards to apprentices and trade education, but its a fact that Aussie IT graduates just aren't as skilled as IT graduates from places like India. SWMBO works as a migration agent and until recently worked for the largest migration firm in Australia, the bulk of that companies work came from Indian IT visa applications.

cheers
BD

[silentC]

Aussie IT graduates just aren't as skilled as IT graduates from places like India

It's true that places like UTS churn out graduates like a production line and they know bugger all when they land in their first real job. But I don't think that the numbers of visa applications from places like India is a reflection on the quality or otherwise of Australian graduates in general.

I have worked with graduates from India and China amongst others, and believe me, they are no better - plus the communication problems make them even harder to train. Trying to explain a complex problem to someone with poor english can be very difficult.

[Frank&Earnest]

It all goes back to that, unfortunately. For historically justifiable reasons and just shortsightedness, the Australian education system is not up to industrialised country level. Australia is now rapidly becoming a post-industry, service based economy without having developed a strong industrial base. Thankfully ample, but now increasingly dwindling, money has made up for a lot of sins. The country is rich enough to support geniuses to reach their potential, because they can do it even if those supposed to teach them are not up to the task. The problem with this is that the 99% who are not can't go very far, so the alternative is to get those who were able to go further, without needing to be geniuses, from overseas. All IMHO, of course.

[Brown Dog]

reflection on the quality or otherwise of Australian graduates in general

I wasnt trying to say that the quanity is a reflection on the quality of Australian graduates but the fact is IT comapanies cant get enough people with the specialised skills they need from Australian graduates....which is not the graduates fault but the fault of what ever education they have recieved. Why else would there be a need to import so many skilled workers

Just to illustrate, the amount of IT workers that are coming in on 457s. SWMBO at her previous job was team leader of a team of four that would of delt with around 50 regular corporate clients, but one Indian IT client provided enough work for a junior agent to work full time on nothing but those applications. This is just one client in one team in a large company in which every other team also would be dealing with IT workers visa applications. Yet on the other hand apart from Linesman and specialty mining occupations she rarely deals with applications based on trade skills.

So my point in response to Billbee's post was that its not just the apprentice system or trade education (ie. munual arts being phased out and replaced with computer labs) that has lead to the percieved increase in migrant workers, but seeing as the large majority of visa applications are IT or white collar based.... this must indicate that there is something else seriously amiss.

I wasnt having a dig at Aussie IT workers just trying to point out there is just a big of a problem in other industries. And I tend to agree with what Billbee says about education (or the Govenments lack of interst in ) being part of the problem

cheers
BD

[silentC]

I realise that, but what I'm saying is that it's not because IT graduates already in the country lack the skills, it's because there aren't enough of them - not so much the quality of the education but the quantity. It's not that candidates being put up for jobs are unsuited, they just don't exist - and companies are having to go off shore to fill the positions.

Go to Wollongong Uni campus and have a look around. There are so many foreign students there, it's staggering. And where do they all go when they finish? They're here on a student visa, they get their education and they go home. If they want to live and work in Australia, they apply for a visa and come back as skilled migrant workers.

Meanwhile, people already in the country who do want to go to uni can't get in because of the number of full-fee paying student places that are being given out.

Again, it comes back to money.

I wonder how many million this APEC conference in Sydney is costing?

[Brown Dog]

They're here on a student visa, they get their education and they go home. If they want to live and work in Australia, they apply for a visa and come back as skilled migrant workers.

All of the the Indian IT workers SWMBO deals with are educated in India.

I realise that, but what I'm saying is that it's not because IT graduates already in the country lack the skills, it's because there aren't enough of them - not so much the quality of the education but the quantity

As part of the application criteria that the sponsor must demonsate, then the Government detetemine that there is a need to import these skills. In other words,that there is a definate skills shortage....ie Australian workers dont have the skills...not individually but as group...and this is because as you pointed out the group is not large enough (as a result of the education system or lack of). Which is what I was meaning to say. So we actually agree (for a change )

I wonder how many million this APEC conference in Sydney is costing?

The boss works for a small company who's office is in the "restricted zone" near the Quay, I cant believe how much inconvinience this will cause to average businesses like them....and all because they are supposedly scared of a few angry protestors....

cheers
BD

[sawdustmike]

There are many reasons why tradesman are not being trained up. Over here (WA) the CCI (chamber commerce & industry) actively campaigned for the deskilling of industry so that skilled tradesmen would not be able to hold industry to ransom, via the unions. What we end up with is a dogsbody training system that has proved to be useless. How do we fix it? Dunno, it's really broke and beyond repair but I dread the thought of the gov trying to fix it. They cannot even get enough teachers in schools and are shutting down police stations and closing hospital beds yet have a multi billion $ surplus.

Once upon a time the gov was the great trainer of apprentices, through the water board, railways, electric commision and public transport etc. All these bodies have been sold off or broken up and no longer train a significant number of apprentices. When I started my app with the WAGR in 1977 I started with about 700 other young kids. That was the end of a generation and numbers declined after that.

Kids are being forced to stay at school until yr12 (soon to be yr13 if pointy heads get there own way). What A waste of time. The extra 2 years just teaches kids to be lazy and unproductive with no discernable outcomes. Manual training facilities have been run down and universities do not train Manual Arts teachers. Doing Manual training in schools is looked upon as dumbing down by administrators, students and teachers alike.

Chucking money at the system is not the answer, its about changing the mindset of politicians and bureaucrats. Might be easier to win lotto.

[Frank&Earnest]

Chucking money at the system is not the answer, it's about changing the mindset of politicians and bureaucrats.

Yep. Isn't it always?

[Blocklayer]

We vote?
We deserve what we get.

What?
You didn't see this coming over the last 20 years?

Oh dear, Australia, what have we done!

[Frank&Earnest]

We vote?
We deserve what we get.

What?
You didn't see this coming over the last 20 years?

Oh dear, Australia, what have we done!

Be fair, it's not a 20 year issue, it's a 200 year issue. But you are right, we are alive now and we have to do our best now.