Taboo subject on this forum? (Electrical queries)

[chrisp]

I'm amazed at the level of concern and fear that questions on electrical matters raise on this forum (or is it everywhere?). I work with electricity every day and while I consider electricity to be dangerous and treat it with a great deal of respect, I often feel that the forum tends to overreact to electrical questions. I get the impression from some of the replies to electrical questions that we must be dropping like flies due to the number of electrocutions. It raises an interesting question, what is the risk of dying due to electric shock? Just how great is the risk of dying from electrical shock and how does the risk compare to other activities? I’ve been search the web trying to find some useful and dependable data on this matter. This is your chance of dying from various causes:

Smoking 950 deaths per million per year
Road accident 82 deaths per million per year
Opioid related 31.3 deaths per million per year
Electrical (Australia) 1.8 deaths per million per year
Asteroid impact 1 death per million per year
Airplane crash 1 death per million per year
Electrical (UK) 0.5 death per million per year

I know there are members who are genuinely concerned about electrical advice, and they are free to provide, or withhold, advice as they see fit.

My view this that we should be able to openly discuss electrical matters and learn from the discussions. I think that the more we know on electrical matters the better we will be at understanding the dangers and the risks – and the better we will be at avoiding them.

My understanding is that doing your own non-fixed wiring is legal in Australia. (I’m happy to stand corrected if I’m wrong.) Therefore, why can’t we ask and discuss how to repair a (non-fixed wired) appliance?

BTW, I didn’t look up chainsaw deaths. I suspect that most of us accept that chainsaws are dangerous when used by the untrained or unknowledgeable. But I’m pleased that we are willing to discuss them and allow others (like me) to learn something about the danger of chainsaws. I don’t expect, or assume, that the discussion in the forum are going to tell me all there is to know about the dangers of chainsaws – but at least I’m aware of dangers that I might have been oblivious to before. This is why I like, and value, this forum.

At the moment I don't think I'd be allowed, or encouraged, to tell people how to use a multimeter to do some basic electrical tests; or how to wire up a extension cord; or how to replace a 3-pin plug; how to identify different types of motors; without someone accusing me of setting out to kill someone, or someone else stating "call an electrician" and then stating that they know nothing about electricity.

I think we could all benefit from open discussion of electrical matters - just as we do from non-electrical matters.

What do you think?

Chris

[ian]

I'm amazed at the level of concern and fear that questions on electrical matters raise on this forum (or is it everywhere?). I work with electricity every day and while I consider electricity to be dangerous and treat it with a great deal of respect, I often feel that the forum tends to overreact to electrical questions. I get the impression from some of the replies to electrical questions that we must be dropping like flies due to the number of electrocutions.

I know there are members who are genuinely concerned about electrical advice, and they are free to provide or without advice as they see fit.

My view this that we should be able to openly discuss electrical matters and learn from the discussions. I think that the more we know on electrical matters the better we will be at understanding the dangers and the risks – and the better we will be at avoiding them.

My understanding is that doing your own non-fixed wiring is legal in Australia. (I’m happy to stand corrected if I’m wrong.) Therefore, why can’t we ask and discuss how to repair a (non-fixed wired) appliance?

At the moment I don't think I'd be allowed, or encouraged, to tell people how to use a multimeter to do some basic electrical tests; or how to wire up a extension cord; or how to replace a 3-pin plug; how to identify different types of motors; without someone accusing me of setting out to kill someone, or someone else stating "call an electrician" and then stating that they know nothing about electricity.

I think we could all benefit from open discussion of electrical matters - just as we do from non-electrical matters.

Chris

as I understand matters in NSW

• there is legislation (or a Government regulation) stating that tap washers can only be changed by a licienced plumber, but the washers are freely available in Bunnings
• there is legislation (or a Government regulation) stating that electrical work can only be done by a licienced electrician
  there is some debate as to whether laying electrical conduit is "electrical" work or not — one view is that an electician has to lay the conduit, another is the electrician only has to supervise laying of the conduit. The reason has something to do with the radius of curvature where the conduit changes direction
• but what I find most "amusing" is that there's two levels of electrical licience
  the guys work on high voltage equipment are not allowed to touch low voltage wiring and vice versa (low to high I can understand, but the prohibition on high to low I find hard to fathom)

yes I agree we would all benefit from some sensible discussion, but I can also understand the sparkie reluctance to become involved in other people's problems

perhaps we could discuss situations on the basis of what's wrong with this ... without specifically saying how to fix the problem


ian

[Ironwood]

I would probably benifit from such a discussion, but, I would be surprised if too many people (who would be qualified to give the advise) would be willing to post information and advise, that has the potential (if they make a mistake, or dont follow or understand the instructions properly) to kill someone.

There is a reason why it takes a 4 year apprenticeship to do a trade.

The old saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" would be very appropriate when it comes to electrical matters.

[silentC]

Electrical matters is a bit of an umbrella term. If you're referring to the discussion on electric motors in power tools elsewhere recently, then that falls into the "yes it's legal but mess with it at your own risk" basket. People giving advice on stuff like that do so at their own discretion, as do people following it. Like making your own tablesaw or jumping out of an aeroplane. No-one can stop you if that's what you want to do.

If you're talking about domestic wiring that is legal (apparently replacing a plug on a vacumm cleaner is OK but hard wiring your stove to the mains is not, and neither is replacing a powerpoint), then there's nothing to stop you giving advice, or following it, as long as you accept the risk. If you give advice then you should think about your obligation (legally or morally) when someone follows it. The person following it may not be the person who asked for it. This is a public forum.

If you're talking about domestic wiring that is not legally undertaken by a licensed person, then people should technically not give advice because the person asking for it is breaking the law. This is covered by the forum rules. I think liability and so on is a grey area and I for one would prefer not to go there - not that I'm qualified to give advice any way - but that is my opinion.

I'm not a sparky but I know which wires go where on a powerpoint and can understand lighting circuits. I'm not qualified to give advice on how to do it so I never would. You can look it up in a book if you really want to. I think the most sensible thing to do in those cases is to advise them to get a sparky. If a sparky wants to give advice to people here on a public forum, then that's his problem. Whenever I see someone asking how to add a new powerpoint, or mess with his lights, I will always say "get a sparky", regardless of how many times people complain about it. If it makes one person stop and think and maybe not do something dumb, then it's worth it.

It's up to you whether you give advice or not, Chris. I can't stop you. Neither can I make it a taboo subject. You simply have to live with my opinion on it, just as I have to live with yours

[dazzler]

Oh no, here we go again

[DavidG]

Quite simply.

If I say anything and someone gets hurt then I may be liable as it could be taken as professional advice.

If you need to ask, then get a pro.

It applies to all cases where liability can effect the situation.

[sundancewfs]

I find it interesting that people are so concerned about elctricity. Knowledge isn't dangerous, actions are. I'm assuming we all know not to get toast out of a toaster with a fork.......As far as legality goes, yes working on electrical circuits is illegal unless you are qualified, so get a sparky to do it for you... But if you don't know anything about the subject how are you supposed to know what to ask the qualified professional to do???

[Pulse]

Good post Chris,

The adage "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing" is true.

...and is exactly the reason we all come to the forum, to share ideas and advice on things where we don't know all the answers.

It is stupid having to get a sparky to replace a powerpoint when the switch breaks, or replacing a light switch, or putting in a few downlights. Most people on this forum are DIYers and have probably committed most of these crimes.

I'd personally welcome a more open discussion of electrical stuff.

Cheers
Pulse

[q9]

The electrical industry is a protected industry. To be able to legally unplug and replug an internal motor into a washing machine you need a restricted electrical licence. Basically a licence that tells you Green/Yellow is earth, Black is neutral, and Red is active (and bites), and that metal conducts electricity.

But you can only get that restricted electrical licence if you already do that kind of work under an electrician. The ESB don't want just anyone getting that REL. I know, I've tried.

I don't find much about electricity hard or dangerous, having worked with electricians a fair bit. Funnily enough, some of the electricians I worked with would routinely work with live wires rather than throw the switch and "inconvenience" the customer.

Anyhow, it is probably the threat of litigation that keeps it taboo, which is a shame. I'd rather see people that are probably going to do it themselves anyway, have access to all the correct information. But there you go.

[Burnsy]

It is stupid having to get a sparky to replace a powerpoint when the switch breaks, or replacing a light switch, or putting in a few downlights. Most people on this forum are DIYers and have probably committed most of these crimes.

As someone who would sheepishly raise his hand when asked this it made me think about a section I had a giggle at in Scott Cam's book Home Maintenance for Knuckleheads (strange gift to be given - me a knucklehead )

Chapter Six - Electrical
"I'm not going to beat around the bush here. 240 volts can kill you. So get a sparky. Treat every wire you find as live - in other words, there are 240 volts running through it. Even if you think the powere could not possibly be on, treat it as if it is. This chapter is tiny, and for good reason. The knucklehead has virtually nothing in common with 240 volts. So if you have an electrical problem, call a sparky!"

I reckon there is good reason for that chapter and it all boils down to the increasingly litigeous society in which we live. As someone who was bitterly disappointed when another forum I subscribed to was shut down because of someone taking offence to something that another said I think it is best to be safe than sorry. I for one would hate to loose this great forum because someone got hurt because they misinterpreted advice or did something they shouldn't have. Having said that though it is a fine line, it is just as easy to hurt yourself using a home made chainsaw mill that you saw online.

[Ramps]

I agree Chris

As To silentc's suggestion of look it up in a book ... why not read it here in stead?

I cringe at some of the suggestions about modifying the cutting edge of power tools too but you're allowed to put your ideas forward. Those extensions for router bits still worry me but they're ok cos they're legal as are ANY modifications that you can possibly think of for a chainsaw ... hmm

That's my 2c worth ... all I can say is I'm with you Chris

[Wood Borer]

I think the Electrical Industry and Authorities are not particularly interested in safety but more concerned about their jobs.

They do not allow people outside their industry to sit for practical and theory exams.

I would study and sit their exams but because I don't wish to be a gopher (apprentice) for some sparky on minimal wages I am not permitted to gain a ticket.

I fail to see how having practical jokes played on me, purchasing lunch for some loud mouthed ignorant sparky and footing a ladder for four years in between doing a little bit of theory at trade school gives me the background to sit their exams. It sounds to me like a comfortable little arrangement to get very labour under the pretence of "on the job training".

I have both tertiary and trade qualifications in electronics and electrical work but the electrical authorities treat me the same as they treat anyone else outside their industry - threats, doom and gloom.

Like I have said before, I have trained hundreds of qualified sparkies and their knowledge of fundamantal electrical theory is virtually non existent. They know their regulations though.

I reckon I am smart enough to study their regulations and do the theory and practical exams, why don't they let me? If I'm not up to scratch then I would bomb out.

If safety was their prime concern then allowing people to gain their qualifications/ticket would be encouraged.

It is difficult to respect the electrical authorities when they take this stance so I will judge them by their actions.

[Wild Dingo]

Strange subject... but still never one to shy away from strange subjects I'll stick me foot in

Me? Im absofrigginlutely terrified of electricity... Im aslo severely colorblind... I rely on notations and other people for color things... electrical wiring is something I learnt many years ago that is a thing I personally should never touch... and dont.

Lucky for me... one of the future son in laws is a mature aged sparky apprentice however unlucky for him hes already done a DEGREE in lighting which is more indepth and more electrical intensive than the sparky trade qualifications hes now going for... but because its a degree outside of the electrical industry to get his ticket as an sparky he has to do the apprenticeship... thus meaning hes studied for 4 years at Uni to get his degree and now has to do the 4 year apprenticeship... given 12 months off for "prior learning" ala his degree however in another 2 years he will be a qualified lighting tech AND a qualified sparkie which is a good thing

One of the other future son in laws is a bush bunny who having lived on a remote farm all his life and as such had to do for themselves in all things... mechanics plumbing etc along with electricals his view is do it yourself... and he has wired his shed up himself sourcing all the stuff needed from electrical distributors and other places like bunnings.. and has no fear that its done "properly"... and to be honest its a good job from what I can see but I am not an sparkies earhole Ben is and he shivers and shudders whenever he goes into Daniels shed.. no bare wires or anything like that Ben just knows the cable is running just beyond that thin METAL rail and over the ones up the roof to the overhead lights... Bens problem is he knows TOO much and is concerned Dans problem is he knows to little and isnt concerned my problem is I dont know shyte about the stuff and everything about it scares the bejeezus outta me

No thats wrong... I just wont wire something up or attempt to do so although I have over the years changed plugs on extension leads

There are something where the old saying "life is just too damned short" really makes sence to me... electricals is one of them

God made some people mechanics... if you want to play with greese oil and muck become one
God made some people plumbers... if you want to play in shyte become one
God made some people electricians... if you want to play with extreme energy become one
God made some people colorblind... if you want to becoem an electrician... get your head belted with a sledge hammer and get over it PAY someone to do it.

But by all means have a long yarn about it... but make sure what your tellin people is ACURATE!! gawd help some poor fella that takes your word for something and you leave something out and they die because that little bit of info could have been that one thing that would have made the difference... just be REALLY SURE thats all.

[ozwinner]

Our son is in his final year at Uni studying Electrical Engineering.

He has already been told he cant touch any hard wired electrical stuff at all.

And yet he will be qualified to design the layout of power stations, sub stations, etc.etc.

So I think Rob is right about a closed shop as the boy would, and does know, more than any sparkie Ive ever met.

Al

[Fox3]

While there are indeed people that should not ever even consider messing with electricity this strikes me as protectionist BS.

I have no electrical license (I don't know the regs beyond those that are just common sense and a few more) but I have studied extensively and have the fear of God about the potential for NASTY things to happen. Seen it and rather than scaring me away from it what it did was to make me learn what to do / not to do and if in ANY doubt I will get an electrician (on this side of the pond - sparky to you).

240VAC is the most I am willing to mess with and I am VERY circumspect and I ALWAYS keep one hand in my pocket (don't ask how I learned that one ).

People who need something now WILL mess with it. People who can't afford a sparky WILL mess with it.

Leaving them ignorant will get someone killed or maimed (I really hate that word ).

Regulation by paid off pols for the "protection" of the masses and "safety" has already reached disgusting proportions. How long before we need a license to breathe?

Safety IS INDEED an issue here but common sense and education can take care of that problem.

There will always be some idiot doing something really stupid and no amount of protectionism for the minuscule percentage of those is ultimately going to make a damn bit of difference.

Educate the masses and make sure that information is available with the appropriate warnings. Fools will be fools no matter what we do or don't do. Crippling everyone for the sake of the idiots and fools is just so wrong. Real sparkies get killed and maimed too...

Also, on the edit, I just wanted to add that electricity at the end of an extension cord, the motor to a power tool, light bulb or anywhere else is no less dangerous than it is anywhere else.