DIY 'Ripple Signal' Ceiling Fan Noise Fix ?

[SteveAndBelle]

Hi,

Before my wife and I rip our hair out in frustration I was wondering if any of you clever guys & gals knew of a way to stop the amplified Ripple Signals in the mains from making our expensive ceiling fans really noisy and our lights from flickering ?


We put up with it in our old house thinking it may have had something to do with the somewhat dodgy wiring etc. however just before we advertised the house for sale I replaced the fans with brand new $30 cheapies and took our beautiful $300 jobbies with us Thing is they're just as noisy in our current house as they were in our last house ... and that's even using different controllers and all ! In fact I've now tried three different types of controller on these fans but to no avail ... the old fashioned huge klunky transformer type, the newer 3 or 4 speed klunky rotary switch type and the even nicer smooth rotary knob type (which are the ones that originally came with the good fans but we left in the old house).


We now need to find a solution because we refuse to join the Air Conditioning energy guzzling bandwagon so we rely on ceiling fans to keep our cool on those hot Brisbane Summer nights (of which we're just starting to experience over 7 weeks later than usual).


Before I call the electricians in I thought there might be someone out there who could help with a DIY solution. I've got no problem doing any electrical work on the 'safe' side of the fusebox and have been doing it safely & well for many years so if there was some kind of filter I could install there would be no problem there ... I just don't know what to look for that's all (not that I've tried much).


I did find this on the 'net : http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent...ext=infopapers but that's really all I could find on the topic. It seems that no-one else I talk to has this problem but I'm sure they do going my that document.


Anyone have a solution ?

[NCArcher]

Steve and Belle,
I don't think ripple signals are the problem.
The signals you refer to are used to switch the metering for hot water and heating systems (off peak) rather than switching using the old timer meters.
The signal only lasts a couple of minutes at most and is then shut off.
I think it more likely that the fans themselves are the problem. Two different locations and three different controllers with no change or improvement would clearly point to the fans as being the problem.
I am an electrician but certainly no expert on Supply Authority switching and metering procedures.
I would call the supplier and voice your concerns but be advised that installing the fans yourself has probably voided any warranty. (so you might not want to mention that bit)

[silentC]

Did the $30 fans make the same noise?

[davo_scuba]

we have the same problem, but for me it's more the lights that flicker when dimmed, they are OK when fully turned on but as soon as I drop the power below half way at (7:30pm ish ) they can start to flicker also late into the night they have a tendency to do this as well with regards to the fans we have just got use to it (years in a engineering factory works wonders on the ears, think it upsets the wife though!!).

It would be nice to buy something you could put in-line to stop this.
does anyone have any ideas ???

[SilentButDeadly]

I assume you are talking about the 'whun whun' struggling electric motor type noise that many fans make typically when they are tired of life.....I'm no sparky but I assumed the noise is something to do with a 'flat spot' in the motor or some such that created extra load on the electric motor.

We've got two ceiling fans in our place. One is new as the original one was making this wonderful noise over our bed. New fan and controller (decent one with 5 year warranty @ $120) fixed the drama. Main thing to notice was that the manufacturer advised that to ensure the long life of the fan that we had to use the old style 3 position switch with big ungainly potted capacitor on the back supplied with the fan and that we weren't to use the speccy new HPM rotary dial controllers that I already had.

I don't think it is the PS to your place.....

[SteveAndBelle]

Thanks guys ... but here are a few responses :

NCArcher - I thought it was the fans too however our dimmable bed-side lights flicker the same rhythm 'pattern' whenever the fans make the noise. I then thought that maybe the fans are to blame and they're introducing noise into the power and that the lights are just picking up on that ... but no ! I tested that theory one night by having the lights and the fan on but as soon as I heard the fan make the noise and saw the lights flicker I quickly turned the fan off and bingo, the lights were still flickering and then continued to do so randomly over next hour or two. If it was as simple as the fans being faulty I'd be very happy ... apart of course from losing $600 worth of fans These fans are now out of warranty so I doubt the manufacturer will care if I installed them or not. I will probably just say they were in the house when we bought it.

SilentC - Did the $30 fans make the same noise ? Well, once I had installed them I turned them on to make sure they didn't wobble and to make sure they actually turned around. They did and that's all I needed to know We didn't really spend much time in the house after it was on the market as it sold within a week so I suppose I'll never know what the fans were like. Saying that though my mum & dad (a couple of suburbs away) had interstate guests stay recently in the spare bedroom and they had a similar complaint about the strange noises from the ceiling fan ... so much so that they went out and bought their own pedestal fan ! I know for a fact that it's a $30 cheapie with a $10 light hanging off the bottom.

Davo_Scuba - Yep, that's it with us too. The lights flicker or 'shimmer' ONLY when they are dimmed. At full power they're perfectly fine however when you stop and concentrate on them you can still notice a very, very, VERY slight shimmering effect when the fans are making their noise ... but absolutely nothing to worry about at all.

SilentButDeadly - 'Whun Whun', YES !! That's EXACTLY it however I doubt it's got much to do with the age or 'load' of the fan because these have been doing it from new and the one at dads place is only 3-4 years old and hardly ever used ! Interesting what you said about the controller though because that has always been in the back of my mind, but that doesn't resolve the fact that the bed-side lights do it too !

I just don't know anymore. Our current house, our old house and my mum & dads house are all within a few km's of each other so maybe it's a widespread problem with this area but no-one else could be bothered complaining about it or perhaps some fans don't make as much noise as others. That document I posted the link to above kinda proves that it can be a widespread issue and also proves that people can get irritated by it so I doubt we're alone.

I might start calling Energex and a few electricians to see what they say. If anyone else has any input please, please, please add it to this forum as any extra pieces of the puzzle might just allow us to solve the problem.

Thanks again for your input so far.

Whun, whun, whun, whun, whun, whun, whun, whun .... GRRRRRRRRR !!!!!

[SilentButDeadly]

Hmmmm...in that case....you may not be getting enough grunt in your power. If the grid in your area is oversubscribed (too many users, too many air conditioners) then you may not be getting enough volts and amps (particularily at peak times) and it might be resulting in the grid supply oscillating.....oHHHH he's guessing now!!!

[SteveAndBelle]

If the grid in your area is oversubscribed (too many users, too many air conditioners)

Great ... so the people who try to do the right thing by buying houses designed for the climate (ie. nice old airey QLD'ers instead of those new eave-less black-roofed brick & tile boxes) so they don't need to waste energy on air-conditioners now have to put up with the effects of all the power hungry people anyway ? I really hope this isn't the case !!

I think I might give Energex a call and see what they have to say about all this now that I have some more 'ammo' I'll let you all know what the outcome is ....

[null & void]

Hi,

Before my wife and I rip our hair out in frustration I was wondering if any of you clever guys & gals knew of a way to stop the amplified Ripple Signals in the mains from making our expensive ceiling fans really noisy and our lights from flickering ?

You're not the only one that notices it.
I hear it in my ceiling fans, 2400W bar heater and see the interference on my TV.

I've worked in the substations and know that the tones are generated all day for more than just switching hotwater on and off but also for changing transformer settings and switching other loads.

I seem to remember reading somewhere about a notch filter that is able to be fitted after the meters to filter out the noise.

[SteveAndBelle]

I seem to remember reading somewhere about a notch filter that is able to be fitted after the meters to filter out the noise.

Whoa, now we're getting somewhere !! Thanks a bunch Null & Void

OK, I called Energex at about 5pm and just asked if anything could be done. Strangely enough this type of thing is classed as an 'Emergency' even though I stressed that it wasn't and the Energex person also knew that it wasn't. I didn't think too much more of it, until ....

My wife and I came home from seeing 'A night at the Museum' (a funny 'light & fluffy' movie, go see it for sure!) at 9pm to find a calling card left by Energex. Amazing !! They had already been out to test our supply ! The card says that they couldn't find any problems however they will be in contact in the morning. Wow, efficient eh !

We'll see what happens and I'll update this forum but thanks again to all who've added their 'bit' so far. I'm going to get this resolved no matter what and I'm going to tell the rest of the world how to fix it too !

[Master Splinter]

You might be looking for one answer to unrelated problems.

For the fan noise...check the bearings. I doubt that the fans have bearing races, they probably have oil impregnated sleeve bearings and these could be gummed up with all kinds of airborne grot. This makes them harder for the motor to turn, and of course noisier.

For the flickering lights...what sort of light are they, and do they have the right type of dimmer (as the lights dont seem to flicker when on full power)?

Low voltage lights need both the right sort of transformer and the right sort of dimmer (I can't remember offhand if it's a leading edge or trailing edge dimmer). And of course, compact fluroescents don't dim.

I would (since you are happy to work with electrics):

1. Take down the fans for a night or two. Confirm that the flicker in the lights is/is not there. (I'm assuming the lights are not integrated with the fan)
2. Swap the light dimmer switch for a standard on/off switch. Check for any remaining flicker in the lights.
3. If there is no flicker, reconsider why you need a dimmer. Maybe using a lower wattage bulb would be better (dimming lights is pretty energy inefficient - a light at 75% brightness is using more like 90% power) and adding a few extra lights/lightswitches for task lighting if needed)
4. If - despite having taken all suspect devices offline - there is still flicker, contact your energy provider and get them to take a look.

In a worst case (maybe someone nearby has a lumping big TIG welder with high frequency attatchment for welding aluminium and they like to weld at crazy hours of the night) you may be able to solve it by adding some ferrite EMI noise suppression (download the Ferrites primer from here).

[SteveAndBelle]

For the fan noise...check the bearings. I doubt that the fans have bearing races, they probably have oil impregnated sleeve bearings and these could be gummed up with all kinds of airborne grot. This makes them harder for the motor to turn, and of course noisier.

For the flickering lights...what sort of light are they, and do they have the right type of dimmer (as the lights dont seem to flicker when on full power)?

Thanks 'Master Spliter' however I know that this isn't a bearing related problem because this has been happening from the day the fans were initially installed from new. Sure they may have been poorly made but that doesn't explain why they're only noisy at the same time the lights flicker ! I doubt the dirt & grime would know when to jump into the bearings right at the exact moment the lights start flickering and then jump out again when they stop Nah, it's an electrical noise for sure. I can just hear the constant mechanical noise the fans make when it's really, really quiet but when the electrical noise cuts in it's much louder and much more annoying.

The lights on the bed side tables are 'good looking' versions of those silly three stage touch-lamps. I've always hated those touch-lamps mainly because I know that the dodgy built-in dimmer circuitry is only going to last 12 months and the fact that all the ones I've seen in the past have been dog-ugly. These however suited our bedroom perfectly and I didn't know they were touch lamps until I unpacked them and went looking for the switch ! The thing is that the shimmering is really noticeable on the first two 'dimmed' settings but it's acceptable on the third setting which I'm pretty sure is full power. It's no real problem because we just use them on their dimmest setting to find our way around the room at night and my wife then cranks her side light up to full power when she wants to read.

I'm basically using the shimmering lights as a means of proving that there's something wrong with something other than the ceiling fans ! Our old bedside lights were just simple 40Watt on/off switched bulbs and they shimmered as well, similarly to the way the new touch-lamps shimmer at full brightness.

I'll see what Energex says when they come back to 'investigate' but if they can't find anything I'll then go hunting the problem down myself. First step is to take the fan controller out of the picture so there's nothing in between the fan and the power source except for a switch.

I'll let you all know what happens ...

[SteveAndBelle]

Well, there's a dead end !

Energex left a great note in the letterbox telling me that everything checked out OK and that they would be in contact to discuss the problem further ... but of course we've heard nothing for nearly a week !

I might get a sparky in the listen to the problem and see what they think. I can then get in touch with Energex after that if need be.

The saga continues ...

[spartan]

I will give you a tip in regards to this....

Call Energex and ask them to read out the report that the field technican submitted.

You want to ask a couple of questions...

1. What is the voltage in your street?
2. What is the voltage at your box?

In many parts of Brisbane a number of the street transformer were under spec'd for the loads (air con etc).

Energex have been replacing 50KVA transformers, with 200 KVa tranformers right across brisbane.

Do you notice lights dimming when the fans are off? perhaps when the fridge kicks in?

Do you have an RCD? As earth leakage could be another issue worthy of investigation - and could be tested easilt with something like a powerpoint tester...if your RCD trips at 15ma when its rated at 30ma it may reflect residual current on your circuit.

Are the fans on the same circuit? on the same circuit as the lights in the bedroom?

How are the fans wired? Eg, does the Power go to the back of the swith and then out to the fans?

[Deanom]

Great thread.
I too have been having this problem. Intermittent noise in the fan(s). Replaced the old cheap fans with expensive fans and I am still having the same problem. Exactly the same sort of noise. The noise lasts for about 5-20 seconds and I have been determined enough to run between the bedrooms to discover all fans making the same noise. It definately aint no bearing problem. I am very frustrated with this. Intermittent would be anywhere between 1 to 6hrs (estimate as I dont time it, it just wakes me up in the night, everynight). This has to be the reason. Searching Google has yielded that clipsal has a fan controller that is supposed to be immune to this ripple voltage. Try this
www.clipsal.com.au/consumer/<wbr>products/DandC_Elec/Lights_Fans/dimmers

I dont know whether it works. Given that I've bought 4 new controllers from HPM for about $50 each with out any difference to the problem, I'll give clipsal a ring on Monday to see if their product is the solution for my woes. N.B. Called HPM today and their sales rep knew nothing about their products nor was the help phone number on the controller documentation correct.
Keep us informed if you find a solution.
Cheers
Deanom