Type of Floor Finish- Advice needed

[xrchris]

Greetings all,

I am having my jarrah floorboards sanded and polished in a months time. From the valuable information i have gained here it seems that Wattyl Estapol 7008 appears to be many peoples choice of finish. I like the sound of this product because of its scratch resistance (I will try to keep my Great Dane off the boards!)

The chap I am getting to do the sanding has said he used the Bona X line of products. This is a water based product and he said he will apply the 'Traffic' variety which is a satin finish for high traffic areas, and therefore scratch resistant i assume.

I can either go with the tradesman and have the Bona X Traffic product or just get him to sand the boards and i could attempt to apply the Wattyl 7008 myself.

Do any of you have any opinions on what product would best suit for scratch resistance? Will the 'Traffic' product suffice or will it be better to suffer the smell and time of applying the 2 pac myself?

Thanks for any replies in advance!!

[vGolfer]

I mulled over the idea of doing the sand & polish myself but after about 10 different people talked me out of it I decided to go with the pros.

I think it was a good choice.

No idea what brand product he went with but it was a polyurethane semi gloss that has turned out just great. Our Sydney Bluegum boards have come up a treat.

[xrchris]

Bump!

[Studley 2436]

I did the floor in our photo studio myself. It is a hard time consuming job to do. The finish I used is a poly base thin with turps called Ultrathane. Very hard and durable. There is no reason not to do it yourself but it is a good idea to be very careful with getting the details right. Like sanding well and vacuuming and wiping down thoroughly after you sand before you finish.

Studley

[Timmypig]

Xrchris

I have used Wattyl 7008 and a Cabots water wash up (whose name eludes me at the moment) and the Wattyl stinks like a bastard when being applied, is a pain to clean up .... but it IS durable. I'm in the midst of doing another bedroom at the moment, and I think I'll go for the 7008 again, despite the pain of its application and wash up.

Good luck

[Gaza]

Traffic is the most used timber floor finish for commerical aplications, we have used in shopping centers, cafes, bars, child care etc, this product is designed for high traffica applications and is not cheap but the best, no smell as water based, fast drying.

Cabots is not a trade used brand by floor sanders, it is more a diy product, brands used by pro's inlcd featswatson, toby, bona, enviro pro, polycure, syneko.;

[Carpenter]

If you're after a professional result, under no circumstance should you attempt the sanding process yourself. The hire equipment is often dodgy, & it really takes some time to learn how to use a drum sander properly. You'll end up with gauge marks, uneven spots etc:eek:

In the past I have been all in favour of the synthetic finishes, but on my most recent job the client was adament about using Organoil flooring oil. I did my best to talk him out of it but to no avail. Lo & behold I have had to eat humble pie, because Its the best looking result I've ever seen (25yrs in building). There's something about a natural oil finish that now makes me want to spew when I see the synthetic alternatives. No doubt I'll get some flak here, but the floor finishing question is a tricky one, & you're not the first person to ponder this important question. The thing is, when you think about it oil finishes have been serving us for hundreds of years. The important differerence between the two options is this. The Organoil product contains Natural, untampered with Tung Oil. Most of the synthetic manufacturers make the same claim but their blends contain something that could only be called the remanants of true Tung Oil left over after being boiled, chemically altered etc. Synthetic products rely on placement of a thin hard wearing film over the timber, whereas the Organoil takes a different approach. It relys on the oil to penetrate the timber, whereapon the pure Tung Oil contained within their blend begins to harden. If you pour Tung Oil on a sheet of glass it will eventually go completely hard. The end result is that with the oil technique you're using the timber itself as the wearing surface. The synthetic method means if it gets scratched, thats it. The thin protective layer has been compromised, & it can't be repaired. If oil gets scratched, you simply give it a little sand, wipe on some new oil & voila! Beautiful. Some people say the oil finish is too dull, but I haven't seen any synthetic floors that don't look a bit dull after a year of traffic either. With the organoil you simply give it a clean & apply their maintainance oil, buff in & its as good as new. I think the biggest reason for bad reports about oil finishes is because its a completely different method of sanding & application, & most people, even proffessionals unfamiliar with it stuff it up. We're so conditioned to just applying a finish & walking away that the Organoil Hard Burnishing process is a foreign & misunderstood technique that can only be realised with the skills of someone familiar with this process. I've hear'd it said that this product is 10% of their sales & 90% of their headaches. I can only say the result is, in my opinion worth the effort. You don't say where you live XRChris, but if you send me a message I may be able to put you in contact with the best floor sander I've ever seen. ( NSW ) I hope this helps you.

[boban]

Having read Bob Flexner's book on Finishing, the penetrating qualities of oil seem to be a bit of a myth. Im no expert on finishing so I'm merely repeating what I've read. This book really does open your eyes and busts many of the finishing myths out there (and even here).

The most protective finishes seem to be varnishes (polyurethanes). Whilst Im sure the oil looks great, Im not so sure it protects the boards. I recently saw a 12mth old 'tung oil' finish in a kitchen and it looked shocking.

[Carpenter]

Interesting point boban, I would have to agree a kitchen is a harsh environment for an oil finish, even the best oil finish is still porous. Thats one of its qualities, for better or worse. What brand of finish was it? It would be interesting to hear from others about their opinion good or bad of oil finishes on floors. I suspect the timber density has a lot to do with the degree of penetration.

[boban]

I dont know the brand that was used, just that it was a type of tung oil.

I just re-read pages 50 -55 of Flexner's book and I qoute:

"The penetrating qualities of oil finishes are of very little significance in protecting wood"

"Penetration occurs by capillary action" Remember the celery stick in blue water at school. This is essentially an end grain phenomenon. When you apply oil to the surface of the timber all it fills is the pores and thats where it stops its so called penetration. My words in italics

"But what good does penetration do? Very little. You can totally fill a piece of wood with a linseed oil finish, and it will do nothing to protect the surface of the wood from damage. Course objects will stratch the wood, stains will stain the wood, and water will smudge the wood almost as if there were no finish in the wood"

Like I said, Im no expert, but the photos and diagrams that you see in the book seem to make sense.

[Gaza]

Tung oil floor finshes from major manufacters actual contain very little tung oil. Tung oil is just an additve to the other stuff init.

Tung oil floor finishes are great as they dont bond the boards etc but have very bad wearing ability's plus need on going maintanace with a sacraficual wax.

[xrchris]

Thanks for taking the time to reply guys!
The advice has been very helpful

[boban]

Tung oil floor finshes from major manufacters actual contain very little tung oil. Tung oil is just an additve to the other stuff init.

Tung oil floor finishes are great as they dont bond the boards etc but have very bad wearing ability's plus need on going maintanace with a sacraficual wax.

Some brands that are labelled tung oil have no tung oil in them at all. They are varnishes. This seems to be an American phenomenon.

There is a lot of marketing crap out there wrt finishing products.

[Gaza]

if any one is thinking of DIY floor coating do your selfs a favor and go to a floor sanding supplier in Sydney there is about 10, and there are others in each state. You will firstly get good advice from experts (not some dope in the paint dept of a hardware) and the materials are cheaper when supplied in trade "no frills" packaging.

Also don't hesitate to call the manufacture / tech rep they are always helpful, we do heaps of floors every week i see the reps all the time, there advice is valuable.

Any questions please don't hesitate to PM me, i will try to give my assistance when i can. (NB i am not floor sander but employee them)

[judyg]

If you're after a professional result, under no circumstance should you attempt the sanding process yourself. The hire equipment is often dodgy, & it really takes some time to learn how to use a drum sander properly. You'll end up with gauge marks, uneven spots etc:eek:

In the past I have been all in favour of the synthetic finishes, but on my most recent job the client was adament about using Organoil flooring oil. I did my best to talk him out of it but to no avail. Lo & behold I have had to eat humble pie, because Its the best looking result I've ever seen (25yrs in building). There's something about a natural oil finish that now makes me want to spew when I see the synthetic alternatives. No doubt I'll get some flak here, but the floor finishing question is a tricky one, & you're not the first person to ponder this important question. The thing is, when you think about it oil finishes have been serving us for hundreds of years. The important differerence between the two options is this. The Organoil product contains Natural, untampered with Tung Oil. Most of the synthetic manufacturers make the same claim but their blends contain something that could only be called the remanants of true Tung Oil left over after being boiled, chemically altered etc. Synthetic products rely on placement of a thin hard wearing film over the timber, whereas the Organoil takes a different approach. It relys on the oil to penetrate the timber, whereapon the pure Tung Oil contained within their blend begins to harden. If you pour Tung Oil on a sheet of glass it will eventually go completely hard. The end result is that with the oil technique you're using the timber itself as the wearing surface. The synthetic method means if it gets scratched, thats it. The thin protective layer has been compromised, & it can't be repaired. If oil gets scratched, you simply give it a little sand, wipe on some new oil & voila! Beautiful. Some people say the oil finish is too dull, but I haven't seen any synthetic floors that don't look a bit dull after a year of traffic either. With the organoil you simply give it a clean & apply their maintainance oil, buff in & its as good as new. I think the biggest reason for bad reports about oil finishes is because its a completely different method of sanding & application, & most people, even proffessionals unfamiliar with it stuff it up. We're so conditioned to just applying a finish & walking away that the Organoil Hard Burnishing process is a foreign & misunderstood technique that can only be realised with the skills of someone familiar with this process. I've hear'd it said that this product is 10% of their sales & 90% of their headaches. I can only say the result is, in my opinion worth the effort. You don't say where you live XRChris, but if you send me a message I may be able to put you in contact with the best floor sander I've ever seen. ( NSW ) I hope this helps you.

Hi Carpenter, thanks for that great post. I'm about to polish a recycled tas oak floor and am searching for non-toxic solutions. Have talked with Ernie at Organoil after your recommendation - sine that was some time ago, would you now still have a good opinion, or have heard how the floors wear? Apparently they also have a sort of maintenence product too.

Judy