Problem with Minwax

[Arron]

Can someone please tell me what I’m doing wrong. I have been using Minwax Wipeon Poly Gloss to finish some things and not getting a good result. In fact it’s so far from a good result that I think I must have misunderstood the theory.

The problem is that things are not glossy. They look OK from distance – and they look OK although somewhat dull when looked at from straight on – but when examined up close and particularly when looked at at a low angle or into directional light you can see that the surface is dull and scratched looking.
This is what I have been doing.

1. Finish timber to 400 grit
2. Apply sealer – either sanding sealer or shellac
3. Sand to 600 grit or 0000 steel wool
4. Apply three coats of Minwax, using 0000 steel wool lightly to smooth
5. Allow to dry completely for a couple of days
6. Rub with EEE ultrashine, with lots of hard rubbing. Also tried 2000 grit paper and 0000 steel wool, all of which give much the same result.
7. Apply a canubra or beeswax polish. Rub and rub and rub some more.

My understanding of the last two steps is that the EEE carries a very fine grit, which is beneficial because it removes any last blemishes in the wipe on poly. The poly is glossy before step 6, but there are inevitably blemishes and swirl marks or whatever that I need to get rid of, for which I use the EEE. Then I apply the canubra wax expecting it to bring up a healthy shine – but it doesn’t. The point is I cant just stop at the end of applying the Minwax even though there is a nice gloss because of the blemishes in the surface which appear to have come from the process of applying the last coat of Minwax, regardless of how careful I am. However whenever I try to apply a surface treatment (ie the EEE) to give me an ultra-smooth surface I end up removing the gloss and cant get it back. Obviously I’m misunderstanding something.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Arron

[Master Splinter]

Skip the EEE and beeswax polish steps - use a car cutting compound instead. EEE's got wax in it, and any sort of wax over a plastic coating (ie polyurethane) is going to drop the shine as the wax can't sink in - it'll sit on the surface in much the same way water will bead on a waxed surface.

You can also skip the shellac unless you are using it to reduce blotchyness or as a barrier so that the poly can be stripped more easily in the future.

You may also need more like 6-10 coats of W-O-P if you are trying for a more piano-like gloss as its not a particularly high build finish.

If you are going for a high gloss, a spray-on poly would be better as it will build faster and has a better off-the-gun finish than brush on, so it needs less sanding.

Apply, scuff-sand, apply, scuff-sand and so on, then hit the final coat with 1000-2000 grit paper, then buff to a final gloss with car cutting compound.

I always try to keep my finishing families separate - the traditional stuff - waxes, shellac and oils give one sort of finish and the modern stuff gives another, and trying combinations rarely works well.

[Arron]

thanks for the reply.
I have some of that stuff in the garage so I'll give it a try.

Also, I should clarify that I'm not after a mirror finish (piano finish or whatever its called), I still want to be able to see a bit of the grain of the wood - a low build finish with medium gloss level is what I want.

cheers
Arron

[spokeshave]

If your not after a mirror finish, you may be better off using the satin Wipe-on-Poly instead.

I use the satin finish regularly and find i can leave it as is for the low sheen approach or rub between coats with 1200 wet and dry then after 6-7 coats buff with Ultra-shine for a gloss look.

I prefer to use a grain filler (like Timber-Mate) instead of a sanding sealer/shellac on the raw timber then build up with the Wipe-on.

Steven.

[Arron]

Well I found some Kitten Cutting Compound in the shed and gave it a try, after removing (?) the existing wax with white spirits and applying another coat of Minwax. Then I applied the cutting compound and buffed it. The result was the same as before, or worse.

Now I"m wondering if :

- the problem is being caused by the various products I have put on not being compatible and reacting together, or maybe the wax not being fully removed.

- perhaps one of the products I'm using is well past its use by date. I'll have to renew all the products for the next try.

I'll need to start with some fresh timber and try to keep it simple and stick to either sanding sealer and Minwax, or just straight Minwax. Maybe I'll give the Timbermate plus Minwax route a try too.

Any thoughts on these suggestions ? Is the incompatibility likely, would you really expect the lower layers to have an impact on how the final coat finishes ?
cheers
Arron

[woodbe]

Got any photos?

3 coats isn't a lot of wipe-on poly. Ok if you're going to leave it at that, but if you are using steel wool between coats and then cutting it back with polish or 2000 grit paper at the end, is there enough actual poly left on the piece at the finish?

6+ coats sounds like the go to me. If you want to polish it at the end, you need something to polish. Personally, I think the suggestion of using the satin WOP is a good one.

[munruben]

For a really successful finish with Minwax you need much more than just 3 coats. It can take 20 coats or more to bring up a good finish and depends on the timber. It has to be lightly sanded between coats once you have established a reasonable thickness of polish. Patience is another thing you need, it is a reasonable slow process to achieve a good finish.

If you don't allow for each coating to dry then it wont work. Weather conditions of course is important and in cold damp conditions will take longer to cure. Wiping the existing surface you had already with a white spirit probably added to the problem and penetrated the coating causing it to lose its shine.

[Arron]

OK, so I took the advice here and did as follows:

1. repurchased the Minwax, sanding sealer and Kitten cutting compound, just in case.

2. finished some timber, then applied two coats of sanding sealer, sanded till silky smooth.

3. applied 10 coats of Gloss Minwax, sanding after each alternate coat till silky.

4. allowed to dry completely for a day or so, just in case. At this stage the surface was quite nice and smooth and medium glossy, pretty much as I wanted it, except that there was the occasional dust nib and some marks from the cloth I used to apply the WOP (like brush marks but much less noticeable).

5. rubbed with cutting compound.

At that point, when I looked at the surface, it was roughly like one would expect if it had been rubbed with 400 grit paper, dull as. So, I took the cutting compound inside and examined it under a microscope - and its gritty, looks to be about equal to 400 grit (though its hard to tell, even at 200x, so I could well be wrong about that). This is making me think one of three things:

1. I got the wrong type of cutting compound. Should I have expected to see the surface glossy after these steps.

2. Maybe I should be using cut and polish, rather then cutting compound.

3. Should I be applying some sort of polish after the compound.

Anticipating that the answer is number three, and keeping with the auto products theme, I applied some auto Diamond polish. Rubbed it till my arms ached. Its now come up OK, but I know other people arent using this much effort to get a result - no way, so I must be doing something wrong.

any ideas please
cheers
Arron

[AUSSIE]

This may help you a bit.This was done when I first started woodwork .I now do not use Minwax but it works OK Click on Here for a look and read #54
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f174/s...09/index6.html
No Cutting compound,it if way too coarse If anything like that is needed use cut and polish or I would use Micro Mesh.It goes fine enough to produce a shine as on the parts in photos Micro mesh is HERE YOu need to go through the grades without skipping any.right upto the finest ,12000 Leaves a glossy finish .If you dont need it so glossy,you just stop at the grade cloth with the finish you like.Say 6000.
Just my drivel but it worked for me I also put on with a wad made from old T shirts.I cant remember any lines left just a good gloss finish.

[Arron]

Yep, results using cut and polish are looking good. I think I'm nearly there, I just need a fresh surface to experiment on.

thanks too for the tip on micromesh. Never heard of that before.

thanks to all those who have provided assistence

cheers
Arron

[Arron]

Seems to be working now. 5 to 10 coats of Minwax, depending on the finish required and the porosity of the timber, followed up by rubbing with automobile cut and polish. Simple as that.
cheers
Arron

[AUSSIE]