sanding and staining an old staircase

[dean11]

Hi

I'm in the process of restoring an 1888 staircase made of pine and western red cedar (I think). Have spent, I guess, about 30 hours on major structural problems (termites) and 300 hours on "finishing" it already. The balusters, if that's the right term, meaning the upright, turned posts, are now stripped of paint, and I'm sanding them ready for staining. It takes about an hour each. Getting into the hollows is the worst part. Is there a machine that will do this? The wood is so soft that there is the danger of spoiling the profile.


Thanks.

[Stevenp]

G'day Dean11 I have never done a staircase but did an antique bed with a lot of turned spindles. I found a heat gun and a wire brush did a pretty good job, especially in the grooves etc. Hope this helps.
Cheers Steven

[AngelaPetruzzi]

If all is stripped off, a Fein with various grit papers will get into the fiddly bits. You can use the point or even the sides. Don’t press too hard though as you can quiet easily damage the plate and then the papers won’t stick.
Be careful with wire brushes as these can make quiet noticeable scratches.
Test what you intend to use on a piece of timber as with some finishes, you can get away with some small imperfections....others though will highlight.

[dr4g0nfly]

I don't know if you have the same facilities in Aus (Local regulations may prohibit the use of) but have you considered chemical stripping.

They get dunked in a bath of some fairly caustic substance, the lyers of paint bubble, they can then be easily stripped and passed through a neutralising liquid.

Fully dry and job done.

[Horsecroft88]

I too have been down the road of stripping the staircase in our country place (1826), it is completely pine unlike yours. Now while chemical dipping is useful in some circumstances, note not preferable in terms of colour, and definitely cedar should never be dipped, in the case of a staircase, I am somehow at odds that you would wish to undertake such a process. Balastrades is the term you were looking for, so you were close.

In respect of therefore how best to clean everything up, heat gunning paint off and thereafter using paint stripper and coarse grade steel wool seriously is the only way to do it correctly to ensure you don't do it correctly. Don't use wire brushes or worse still a wire wheel on a drill etc. All you will do to pine is damage it big time. I know it sounds tedious but the way to get residual paint out of grooves etc, is to be patient, use paint stripper, fine tools ie. small screwdrivers and tease it out. It works. I know as I have been paint stripping by hand antiques and antique joinery and thereafter french polishing/ or shellac rubbing.

My next point is that it is most unlikely you have western red cedar but instead more likely the desirable NSW/Queensland red cedar. I would be pretty confident that western red cedar was not imported into Aus, (it comes from Canada I think) until more recent times. It is nothing like good Aussie cedar. Both pines and cedar polish beautifully and for an old staircase such as yours the correct finish on the balastrades and handrail is shellac, followed by bees wax polish. I don't know why you would need to stain it, as that most likely shouldn't be necessary. The colour that will come through with a shellac finish, given it previously had been painted should be lovely. Also don't over sand as you will loose the patina and colour by taking it back to looking new.

With a task like this, take your time, the results will be worth it. I will add a few photos from work I have done out at our country place, including the staircase (which is yet to be finished cleaned up and polished).

[Horsecroft88]

I am having a lot of trouble adding images, so hopefully I can add some to show the difference from raw state to finished, to demonstrate what I am talking about re colour from shellac finishing of old, and handstripped timbers.

[Horsecroft88]

And hopefully one more to demonstrate the colour of cedar when polished.

[gyropilot]

Dean, I'll vote with horsecroft88 on this one.
When I worked in a furniture restoration factory we had a huge tank/vat of MEK and I have seen the good and bad of using it - in your case, don't.
As was mentioned a good paint stripper (methyl chloride) and patience, when using papers, use 120 and above to reduce any scratches as it will save you time later. Don't use wire brushes, but if you have some stubborn areas, then a fine steel wool with gentle pressure - gentle - and you should be fine.....
All the best with it..

Geoff

[Horsecroft88]

Cheers Jeff for the vote in confidence in my advice, especially from someone who has worked professionally in this area. What I had meant to say is that while I am not a professional, I do have some 20 + years practical experience in both antique furniture restoration/polishing as well antique joinery restoration. I was originally taught by a teacher from TAFE how to polish, but experience is paramount in being able to offer some words of advice.

The other thing I perhaps didn't quite explain re the difference between handstripping and dipping is that while dipping is effective and I have myself in the past had items dipped, the problem I find is that it bleaches the timber, leaving the surface very dry, sometimes cracked, furry and the residual surface colour can vary from greys to dusky light brown/green. Whereas with handstripping, you get none of these issues. The one thing you do need to be careful though is that using a heat gun can burn the timber below the paint, if the heat gun is too close to the surface, though paintstripping and some light sanding usually can deal with any heat burns. One also needs to be careful with the tools being used so as not to score or tear timber as you strip the paint off. In this specific instance, in order to dip the staircase it would have to be dismantled and taken away to be dipped. To me so long as it is sturdy, to remove it to dip it would be a retrograde step, let alone costly exercise to contemplate.

What I have found in terms of colour, and what I suspect happens, is that the colour of timber once all cleaned up is richer and truer to the original colour of the timber. Old paints were lead based, and what I suspect happens is that some of the pigments over time (say 100 years +) have soaked into the wood grain which acts to magnify/enrich the natural timber colour, once polished. The use of orange shellacs or other types of old style finishes also acts to increase the colours that you get as a finish. For me the other reason to use such finishes rather than polys etc, is that they are natural products and in my view the use of bees wax polishes helps to feed the food. The other thing is the appearance of shellac based surfaces, they feel soft rather than plastic, the lustre is not overly glossy, unless one is seriously into a real French Polished effect. Again understanding how many coats to apply, cutting back, let alone even simple things like 0000 steel wool dry polishing and then applying wax vrs using what I would call a wet polish with 0000 steel wool dipped into the bees wax can produce a slightly different final appearance.

For me the use of stains is fine, when needed, but it is also an experience thing, as it is so easy to over stain, or get runs in the stain, if not applied carefully. In the hands of inexperience the use of stains can make the final appearance of something look too artificial.

That is my take on this anyway. Hope such further explanations help a little.

[dean11]

Thanks for all the helpful comments.</SPAN></SPAN>

This job continues. There are two flights of stairs with eleven steps each. Stripping and sanding have so far consumed at least 300 hours.</SPAN></SPAN>
We were informed about a product which came in two versions, #1 and #8. It sounded great. Smear it on, apply paper, wait, pull it all off and put it in the bin. Both products worked, in that they softened many layers of paint and varnish, and allowed removal. However, both required huge investments of time in the removal process. Putting it on and wrapping it in special paper, or else gladwrap, was fairly easy, but scraping the gluck off took forever. Product #1 worked okay and did not harm me or the job. Unfortunately I was advised to move on to #8. Inevitably some got through my gloves and long sleeves onto my arm and seemed only to sting; but later I discovered I had a huge chemical burn, which took weeks to heal and left numerous pockets of scar tissue. Worse was the effect on the wood.</SPAN></SPAN>
I have been confused about balustrades and banisters since I was a kid. The best advice I can get from the internet now is that a baluster is a turned support for a handrail, and collectively a number of them supporting a handrail are, with the handrail included, a balustrade. Apparently, a banister is a skinnier modern baluster, and not necessarily turned. According to this view my 1888 staircase features balusters, not banisters, supporting a handrail, for which there is no other term than handrail, and the whole lot is a balustrade.</SPAN></SPAN>
Anyway,the #1 product did not affect the wood significantly. After a light (in terms of depth, not duration) sanding, the balusters emerged a subdued warm light brown. I was sure the wood was Australian Cedar or Toona Australis, which used to grow in this district, abundantly. But people have claimed that it was all cut out by 1888 and that Western Red Cedar was commonly used. The fairly wide growth rings are supposed to be typical of WRC, not Australian Cedar.</SPAN></SPAN>
The #8 alkaline dangerous product turned the lower 20 balusters a much darker colour, and also made them somewhat blotchy. Much worse, I applied it to the skirting boards, which must be a different timber, though they look the same. They were bleached and discoloured blotchily to a depth of 2mm or greater – almost destroyed.</SPAN></SPAN>
So I would strongly recommend to anyone: do not use alkaline paint strippers on any wood that you wish to restore to its original glory. Even the pine was discoloured.</SPAN></SPAN>
To avoid the plastic look of polyurethane finishes, we have decided to use tung oil on the non-pine portions. I can add different proportions of stain to the oil to compensate for the different insults the pieces have suffered over time.. But we are not going to be fanatical about that. It’s actually okay for the lower balusters to be darker, because the lighting down there is almost always more subdued.</SPAN></SPAN>
The pine parts, steps, risers and at the side below the skirting boards, will be japan blacked. Traces of the original surface show that it was nearly black, but wood grain showed through, and it was tough and matt. This will contrast with the cedar bits, but that’s the way it was. 100mm will be exposed at both sides, with a carpet strip between.</SPAN></SPAN>
I was going to go for a shellac finish as suggested by horsecroft88 but wife talked me out of it. The tung oil, which has been applied to the skirting boards, with cedar stain in it, has produced a good colour, but to my taste it is too shiny. The balusters will end up about the same.</SPAN></SPAN>
In terms of wood we have</SPAN></SPAN>
handrail: something very hard, grain similar to the next two ...
balusters: moderately soft, lovely warm colour
steps, risers, etc. : a white pine
skirtings: similar grain to handrail and balusters, but softer again: very soft.</SPAN></SPAN>
I am presently finishing off the upstairs part of the stairwell, doors, plaster etc.; expect to start applying paint and stain, tung oil etc. next week. Despite all disasters it is really becoming possible to imagine that this is how it all looked when the successful young solicitor Julian brought his bride Clara here for the first time, in 1888.</SPAN>


How good are heat guns? What are they - gas powered? Will they work on any paint? What about on outside brickwork with some sort of lime wash underneath and various kinds of oil and acrylic paint on top of that?</SPAN>

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Dean

Once again, I think we all have learned something from your experiences and research. The technical names for the parts of a staircase for one thing. I certainly wasn't aware of the various names given for essentially what are the support rods of a staircase and the handrail. And yes I somehow doubt that a handrail is called anything other than that.

Wow you guys have put in some huge hours into its restoration. I can well imagine what that is like given the extent of my own colonial farmhouse restoration project. We have been working on this project now, and with the help of all the various tradies for the past 3-4 years and not yet slept even 1 night in it. The kitchen at our place was essentially only completed on Monday, all bar one final coat of finish on the floor to be done.

I have heard of the paper which you apply to painted surfaces to strip paint, though never seen it anywhere nor I suspect would have been too keen to try it out. It sounds too fiddly and complicated, and ultimately I would have wondered re its effectiveness.

In respect to your question re what is a heat gun. Mate where have you been These things have been around for I think somewhere over 20 years. You buy them at your local hardware store. They are electric. You simply plug it it, turn on the heat switch to either low for minor jobs or high for major stripping purposes. They are extremely useful for removing old tired paint from weather boards but I have found with care (that is never use to close to the timber) that they are just as effective for the removal of paint from furniture and also joinery. I have been doing this sort of thing for as I say over 20 years. You use a heat gun in one hand and a flat metal paint scraper in the other. Dead easy to use. But you do need to wear a mask and have good ventilation. The burnt paint comes off in large flakes, and drys. This just needs to be swept up/vacumned up. You will be left with a residual surface, as was shown in the picture of our staircase and from there then the issue of paint stripping becomes relatively straight forward. Doing this saves an immense amount of time. Regarding use on brickwork etc., I would think a heat gun would be of limited use. We have used one in our farmhouse project to remove the paint from the sandstone mantles in the front rooms, but we still needed to use paint stripper to get the muck off.

Of course if using a chemical paint stripper you do need to be careful re the issue of chemical burns. But I actually in all my years have never suffered any major issue. If I get some onto me, I merely quickly remove and wash the affected area in cold water. Chemical burns of this nature should never penetrate the various skin layers too deep if quickly attended to. I am sorry to hear of your troubles re that.

I am extremely puzzled by the reaction however to the timbers you describe. As a rule I have never experienced this, and that includes paint stripping baltic, huon, Kauri, oregan, American redwood (and I will come to that in a moment), Australian cedar (NSW/Queensland), Tas oak, english oak, and even mahogany, with normally available paint stripper, that is products like Selly's quick strip, which I am assuming is a alkaline stripper ?? I have tried a variety of the citrus based/supposedly more environmentally friendly paint strippers and found them in truth to be largely useless. Hence I always end up going back to what I know works.

The blotchiness/discoloration you describe sounds most odd. Certainly when you apply a product such as these let alone later on a finish it will change the colour of timber, but once cleaned off and dried it shouldn't be a problem. However, in your case obviously it has been. Wierd. Anyway, what happen when you sand this off and have started applying the finish of your choice does the effect blend in and largely disappear ?? I would have hoped so.

To an extent I don't really mind if the colour of old timbers being stripped and repolished is not even, as I actually wouldn't expect this to occur anyway. So perhaps what you like vrs what I am happy with differs. As I say I have used the method I have now for over 20 years both with antiques, as well as all joinery in our 2 historic properties with little of the issues you describe. I guess it is up to everyone to figure out what works for them.

Getting back to the discussion on cedar, again as I previously wonder, re the comment about western red cedar. I will stick my neck on the line here re that. I can't say I have ever heard of it being used in construction in Australia pre the 1970s-1980s, when it became the timber of choice for the cladding of homes (weatherboards and fascias). On the other hand, I do have examples of American redwood, that I recycled from a demolition project. It is both dark red/brown in colour but has a wide grain roughly similar to the lighter coloured Oregan pine. Perhaps this is what you may have ??? Aussie cedar was used as a timber of choice for joinery in better quality homes as I understand it to around the late 1880s where by that time it had largely been depleted. Of course for furniture use, this continued well into the 1920s. But Aussie cedar is highly distinctive and the grain rings are narrow and quite similar in appearance to mahogany, which of course is why it became so popular once discovered. Perhaps my understandings of this are incorrect, if so I am happy to accept otherwise.

Tung oil is a great finish, and yes I too use this, but primarily on floors and for surfaces such as in the kitchen and bathrooms where there is both traffic, and/or exposure to heat and water. On the other hand I would always use shellac for all joinery (skirtings, architraves, window frames, mantles and doors) as this is what typically was always used. It looks right, it feels right and is easy to maintain. Plastic finishes I avoid like the plague. So I am a little intrigued as to why you would shy away from shellac. I certainly wouldn't use shellac on the treads or risers of a staircase as it would wear too fast, this is where I would use tung oil but for the rest of the staircase shellac makes perfect sense IMHO.

Black japan is ok for floors, so would work also on the treads and risers but once applied it is virtually impossible to remove, if you ever wished to in the future. It also would hide to an extent the colour and grain of the timbers, so it kind of sounds counter intuitive to me. But of course this is your home, therefore your choice.

Anyway great to hear of your progress and as we all like photos, hopefully you can post a pic or two of the said staircase restoration, I am sure it will be a centre point of much pride and discussion with all who visit your home, let alone for yourselves.