Taboo subject on this forum? (Electrical queries)

[silentC]

See, again it turns into a debate about whether the laws are appropriate or not.

I've got a modern car that's capable of doing 200kmph - just. It has safety features and I know how to drive it, so why can't I drive at 200kmph everywhere? Why do I have to drive at 90kmph on the straight between Pambula and Merimbula? It used to be 100kmph but someone decided it was dangerous, so now it's 90. It doesn't mean I'm not capable of handling a car at 100kmph, but I can argue that point till I'm blue in the face (a bit like this topic) and Mr Plod will still book me for 10k over.

The question that is being raised is not whether or not people with no qualifications, or people with qualifications but not the right ones, should be allowed to do electrical work; it's whether, given the current situation, people should be asking for or giving advice on it.

I really can't comprehend why people can't see that and keep getting sidetracked into the "I know what I'm doing but it's a closed shop so I'm not allowed to" debate. I don't know of too many posters who have ever disagreed with that. It's not the point. Regardless of how capable you believe you are or what qualificatins you think you have, doing your own wiring is illegal. Can we agree on that?

So that being the case, should you be asking for or giving advice to people on a public forum, that could be read by anyone with a computer and an internet connection. That's the question that is being asked. If you say yes, well, that's a matter for your conscience. I say no, but that's just my opinion.

The reason I keep getting involved in this debate is because of the reaction people have when someone is told to get a sparky. I believe, and will continue to believe, that this is the best advice you can give anyone who is scratching their head over a wiring issue that, by law, they should not be getting into at all.

What some of you need to do is stop looking at it from your own point of view and try thinking about it from the point of view of someone you know who is absolutely clueless but thinks they'll give it a go anyway and ask on a forum, or down at Bunnings. I know some people like that.

[sundancewfs]

Being an Australian and living in the USA its interesting as to the different general education that is given regarding electricity. Growing up in Australia we had it drummed into us to always turn the power point switch off before plugging or unplugging a device and that the electricity in the power point is dangerous and WILL kill you. In the USA having talked to quite a few people, it seems they are taught that it will give you a shock, oh and their standard 120v power points (outlets) don't have switches at all. I build my own tube (valve) amplifiers for guitars and am constantly working with voltages @ 350v aside (700 volts AC peak to peak). If you are aware (read, educated) as to the risks and how to deal with them, you should be safe. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to electricity, as a comsumer/enduser or as an electrician or technician.

[Iain]

I am inclined to agree with most on over regulation, ye Gods, we now need a certificate to pull a beer in a pub (Responsible Serving of Alcohol, wehatever that means), pay someone who just had a win on the pokies (Responsible Service of Gambling), work in retail (Cert II-III-IV Retail, are you being served with authority), it has become a joke.
I have a Cert IV in workplace training and didn't even know I had it, when I became a warranted leader with Scouts, and Scouts Australia being a recognised provider, I became qualified.
Question is though, what do I do with it???

[silentC]

Question is though, what do I do with it???

You can teach at TAFE, amongst other things...

[bpj1968]

Thought I would add my 2 cents worth.

Why can't we ask for general advice on anything electrical. Even if someone is going to do something illegal, they will probably do it anyway, so we may in fact save their life.

Or the advice giving may help with the economics of repair vs replace. It will also help to have an understanding of what is involved ao if they do geta sparky they will have a better idea of the price.

"If you have to ask how to do something, then you shouldn't do it"
That is crap. We wouldn't have a forum.

If I was to ask "How do iI sharpen my chisel" , I am pretty sure that I wouldn't get a reply of get someone else to do it, likewise "How do i put a ____ finish on my last project"

most posts are either

• How do I do .........
• Which ......... should I coose E.g. tool purchase
• Look what I've doen and how I did it.

All of these have a common link of educatining ourselves or others.

Any advice I read on this forum I way up it's merits and make any decisions thoughtfully. Otherwise I would have a shed full of 10 different tablesaws, other tools I wouldn't know how to use, but was told I had to have Tons of timber I will never have time to use, no room to do it and no money.

I got onto this thread from https://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=51308
which was someone asking about the logistics of bring 120v tools and converting when he moves here from the USA. Being told sorry no advice is the best advice is rubbish. When you read teh entire thread there was some good and some dubious advice, and it should be left up to the person asking to decide.

[chrisp]

I think the Electrical Industry and Authorities are not particularly interested in safety but more concerned about their jobs.

They do not allow people outside their industry to sit for practical and theory exams.

one of the future son in laws is a mature aged sparky apprentice however unlucky for him hes already done a DEGREE in lighting which is more indepth and more electrical intensive than the sparky trade qualifications hes now going for... but because its a degree outside of the electrical industry to get his ticket as an sparky he has to do the apprenticeship...

Our son is in his final year at Uni studying Electrical Engineering.

He has already been told he cant touch any hard wired electrical stuff at all.

And yet he will be qualified to design the layout of power stations, sub stations, etc.etc.

So I think Rob is right about a closed shop as the boy would, and does know, more than any sparkie Ive ever met.

Al

This is part of the reason I started this thread. I too have a degree in electrical engineering (and more), I work as an electrical engineer, I head an electrical engineering department in a major research establishment. I know my electrical stuff quite well.

I know there is need for rules and regulations, but someone such as myself (see examples quoted above) cannot get any reasonable wiring license without doing a four year apprenticeship - even a restricted license that limits me to working only on my own property . I suspect some won't believe me and think I may have it wrong, but I've been in contact with the regulatory authorities and it is one prerequisite before another and the only way is the do a four year apprenticeship (and be employed as one) - regardless of prior qualifications.

I'm not saying "send me a license in the post", but I cannot see why I cannot sit whatever theory and practical exams that are required to prove competency without doing a four year apprenticeship.

Is the regulatory concern all about safety or maintaining a closed industry?

So, yes silentC, I think it wouldn't hurt to question whether the laws are appropriate or not. Not all laws and regulations are good or beyond question.

Chris

[silentC]

I think it wouldn't hurt to question whether the laws are appropriate or not. Not all laws and regulations are good or beyond question.

Question away, no-one will have any problem with you conducting that debate, least of all me. I'd love to be able to get a permit or whatever to do my own wiring.

Once again, the question you raised was whether we should give or take advice on electrical matters here. If it's legal, then go for it, I say. If it's not, well, I think we should avoid it. If I sound like a broken record, it's because I keep saying this and you keep coming back with the "not all laws and regulations are good or beyond question" line. I agree with you, but that is not what I'm arguing about. Are any of my points hitting home, or am I just wasting my breath?

[jmk89]

SilentC

I think that to some extent there is deafness to your point of view.

Australia has some of the tightest (ie most limiting) rules on who can do what in matters electrical and yet a much higher rate of death by electrocution. I think that this is a perverse consequence of the "refusal to talk/get a sparky approach".

In Australia, people approach electricity on a strangely dualistic basis. On the one hand they worry about how dangerous it is and then on the other they say that because we have tight rules and everything must have been done by a qualified electrician, it must all be safe and so they take silly risks with using it.

Electricity is like lots of other natural phenomena (eg the ocean) - it can be quite safe to enjoy and it can be quite dangerous. The best way to deal with these situations is not to say that they are off-limits, but to educate and discuss. Encourage people to swim between the flags and not go jumping into shallow water, but don't restrict swimming to qualified swimmers... Transferring this approach to electricity would mean that people will approach electricity with a balanced, alert, cautious respect, not the weird attitude that we have at the moment.

So the present arrangements are bad both in policy terms and in their failing to encourage compliance with the standards they are supposed to support. This is not helped by the fact that the present arrangements keep peope who are better qualified to do the work out of the system and supports a job creation scheme for less qualified operatives.

But even if we are not going to change these laws, we should try to change our attitude - I for one take the consumer activist approach: I want to know so that I can try to work out whether what the "professional" is telling me makes sense. I want to understand whether what I am being asked to spend money on is worthwhile or necessary or is just a way for the contractor to make more money. For that reason I want to ask other people what they think and this forum is a great place for discussing precisely these issues.

[silentC]

OK, one last post on this, then I'm opting out of the discussion.

Scenario 1: Joe Blow decides he wants to put another light fitting in his garage. He pulls the cover off the existing light to see if he can patch in another cable. He sees a number of red and black wires, some terminating in the light fitting, some apparently in a loop. Not sure which ones he should tap into, he comes on the forum and asks the question. What he says indicates that he doesn't really have any idea of electrical wiring, beyond the fact that the black and red wires carry power and the green is earth.

The first observation to make is that he doesn't know what he is doing (hence he has to ask). The second is that what he is trying to do is illegal anyway. The third is that he does not know, and so cannot effectively convey, how the existing wiring is configured, or even if it has been done safely according to current standards.

This is the type of question I am talking about. If you try to tell him what to do, you are making the assumption that a) you have understood him; b) he has understood you; c) he gave you enough info to allow you to give the correct advice; and d) the existing wiring is safe. Aside from that, what you are encouraging him to do is illegal.

My advice to him: get an electrician.

Scenario 2: A sparky has been to your house to fit an earth leakage switch and told you that your house needs re-wiring to bring it up to code because of x. You come on the forum and say "is this true, is he ripping me off". I see nothing wrong with answering that.

Enjoy the rest of the debate

[Iain]

The first observation to make is that he doesn't know what he is doing (hence he has to ask).


This is the type of question I am talking about. If you try to tell him what to do, you are making the assumption that a) you have understood him; b) he has understood you.

That is pretty much it in a nutshell

[Frank&Earnest]

My apologies from flogging this dying horse, but I believe that all this discussion has been based on a false premise (or urban mith, if you like this expression) at least here in SA (can't vouch for Australia, is it a real Nation yet? )

Happy to stand corrected and apologise profusely if I am wrong, though.

Being a potential sinner myself, I wanted to make sure I knew the Commandments, so I sourced and perused the relevant legislation.

To my understanding, there is no prohibition for an unlicensed person to do fixed wiring work. The law states that it is the responsibility of the owner of the premises to ensure that the place is safe (penalty: $250,000) and this responsibility is assumed to be fulfilled by getting a qualified electrician to do the job and issue the required certificate.

Wich I dutifully did, having all the house and shed rewired and certified, therefore obtaining absolution from the sins of two generations...

Now, if you are willing to risk killing yourself or others (like a professional electrician has to be, anyway) but your electrical work is found to be up to standard, to my understanding you have not broken the law. You would still be at the mercy of the expert witnesses, though...

ETA: apart this qualification, silentC absolutely nailed it.

[silentC]

NSW: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/n...89128/s14.html
ACT: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/a...994265/s9.html

[chrisp]

The first observation to make is that he doesn't know what he is doing (hence he has to ask). The second is that what he is trying to do is illegal anyway. The third is that he does not know, and so cannot effectively convey, how the existing wiring is configured, or even if it has been done safely according to current standards.

I haven't checked recently, but from memory the "call an electrician" comment also appears in response to questions that are not illegal - such as how do I check/repair my (non-fixed wired) appliance.

BTW, I don't think you are comparing apples with apples when you use the example of speed restrictions - statistics will support the argument that slower limits save lives

[Capt. Zero]

Perhaps this is not the best thread to reply to as my first post on this site; but as one who is from the US and a Texan to boot, I couldn't leave it be.
From what I gather the regs concerning electricity in Austrailia are considerately tougher than here in south tx and a lot of people here are do it yourselfers. Now, I understand and would never suggest it appropriate to advise someone to break the regulations of their local area, one has to consider the idiot factor.
People frequently prefer to ask someone for advice (which they may or may not listen to) than to research a topic carefully prior to attempting to do it. When applying this attitude to activities that take a certain amount of knowlege and care to prevent dangerous consequences suggests an ignorance of the basic life rules necessary for anyone who chooses to do things onself rather than hiring a professional.
That being said, basic wiring is as simple as basic plumbing and certainly less complicated than say building a rolltop desk. This type of question might well have a place here, but as with any post, I at least can never be certain if the questioner has enough basic knowlege to safely preform that which is being asked.
I can suggest a great hammer to get, but cannot prevent you from smashing your thumb.


"Shoes for Industry"
Rev. Dr. Emilio Swartz IV

[sundancewfs]

Here is something to ponder.... you can't legally do your own house/shed wiring etc... But are you allowed to fix your TV,Stereo,washing machine,toaster,fan,reading lamp? How bout changing the brushes in a grinder,router,drill (they come supplied with most tools these days as replacement parts) If you can legally do these things, why couldn't advise be given on these things? TV CRT tubes act like giant capacitors and can have voltages of 20,000 volts or more. Is it OK if its legal and obviously dangerous, but not OK if it is illegal?