What Materials Are These Please?

[pawnhead]

I personally know two people, one an architect and one an electrician who have only come into contact with asbestos through work in the house building industry and who have been diagnosed with asbestos related illness.

The architect died from it about 3 years ago. The sparky was only diagnosed this time last year, not sure what his prognosis is.

How much exposure, and what type of asbestos? I believe there was quite a bit of blue used as insulation in commercial buildings. I believe that super 6 roofing is also made of blue, and it gets flaky and powdery if it's not kept coated with something.

Good way to go about getting a huge ass fine.

As far as I know there's no fine for removing asbestos sheets in your own home. I don't know about burying it in your yard, or in your walls, or shoving it under your house somewhere, but that's what I'd do if I had to get rid of a bit from my place. Of course it would depend on how much I'd have to get rid of.

It isn't really something to take lightly.

Of course not. I wouldn't cut it with a grinder, and it's advisable to wear a good respirator mask, and as OBBob has pointed out, wet down the sheets. You can remove big sheets by locating the nails and punching them. Wear a white suit if you want, and it would be common sense not to stand there sucking in air from where your belting the sheet.
Breathing a few particles may kill you, but so may eating a peanut or being stung by a bee. And if you lock your front door and don't go outside, then your chances of being run over by a bus are reduced to almost zero.

The stuff is quite hazardous and if you don't take the right precautions then you may have to wind up sufering the consequences whether that be a fine or an illness. As the saying goes it's better to be safe than sorry.

I'm not talking about people who have been exposed to blue asbestos insulation, or cases of people being exposed to dust clouds from cutting the stuff with a grinder, as many carpenters have been, before the dangers became widely known. I may well be one of the unlucky ones with a ticking time bomb inside me from the bad old day's.

I'm talking about someone breaking it up with a hammer whilst wearing a respirator or dust mask. How many documented cases of someone dying from this are there? As many deaths as there have been from peanut allergies? Somehow I doubt it.

I think the amount of ppl with asbestosis and mesothilioma speaks for itself to show how bad te stuff really is. I don't think it is a big beat up at all.

Disease is unlikely to result from a single, high-level exposure, or from a short period of exposure to lower levels of asbestos.
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/f.../Risk/asbestos

Asbestosis is a chronic inflammatory medical condition affecting the parenchymal tissue of the lungs. It occurs after long-term, heavy exposure to asbestos, e.g. in mining.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestosis

Mesothelioma is a pretty rare disease, and I believe that there are very few cases that haven't had a long history of exposure: -

Incidence of malignant mesothelioma currently ranges from about 7 to 40 per 1,000,000 in industrialized Western nations
< snip >
A history of asbestos exposure exists in almost all cases. However, mesothelioma has been reported in some individuals without any known exposure to asbestos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesothelioma

If someone can provide any conclusive evidence of homeowners ending up six foot under, just from busting up a bit of the stuff with a hammer, then I might change my mind.

But your right, and it's better being safe than sorry. It's a question of personal assessment of the risks involved, and most people wouldn't agree with mine. They wouldn't touch it, and they'd get a professional to get rid of the stuff. But it's my belief that most people are heavily influenced by the hype surrounding more dangerous practices of the past, more dangerous varieties, and long term exposure. That's where virtually all of the deaths are as far as I'm aware.

[silentC]

How much exposure, and what type of asbestos?

The architect was shocked when he found out he was going to die from cancer of the lining of his chest cavity caused by exposure to asbestos fibres because he has never been in contact with asbestos in a commercial environment (he was an architect!).

The sparky was exposed to fibro through most of his working life.

I read a report a few years ago that reckoned the next wave of asbestos related deaths would come from home renovators. The guys who contracted disease after exposure to it in large doses are all either dying or dead. The ones who don't know they've got it (like the architect) are starting to stack up now.

Point is, you don't know whether the stuff is dangerous or not. So you go right ahead and do what you want but the accepted wisdom is that you should avoid handling the stuff, which is what most sensible people will do.

[pawnhead]

I read a report a few years ago that reckoned the next wave of asbestos related deaths would come from home renovators. The guys who contracted disease after exposure to it in large doses are all either dying or dead. The ones who don't know they've got it (like the architect) are starting to stack up now.

You may well be right. The stuff has been around for a hundred years, although it was more widely used as a sheet material from the late forties onwards. Of the thousands (possibly tens of thousands) of home renovators that have busted the stuff up over the years, I'm sure that many of them would have had a grinder in hand, no dust mask, and would have ended up covered in dust after their demolitions. The few cases that may arise, of them getting crook from it doesn't really prove anything though. With what we know today, you'd be smart to take precautions. I don't think that there'll be many cases popping up in thirty years time, from people doing demos today though. (unless they're idiots and don't follow some safe practices)

Point is, you don't know whether the stuff is dangerous or not. So you go right ahead and do what you want but the accepted wisdom is that you should avoid handling the stuff, which is what most sensible people will do.

Of course you're right there, and that's some good advice. You never know what may happen. I just go off the evidence and statistics available when forming my opinion, without unnecessarilly freaking out about the stuff.

I'm just saying that if I just had a few sheets to get rid of, then I'd buy a mask (although I'd advise a proper respirator for a few extra bucks) and bust it up myself, rather than paying hundreds, or possibly thousands for someone to get rid of it. It doesn't cause much dust at all, except for what may have accumulated inside the wall itself. (This is often also toxic, coming from lead laden pollution over the years) Of course that's my choice and I may be proven to be an idiot in the long run. It might be wiser to let the monkeys who make huge profits out of it get the cancer.

[silentC]

What the report was saying is that during the 80's and 90's it became a real trend, especially in the cities, to buy an old fibro house and "do it up". I've done it myself, twice. Prior to that, people didn't tend to do it so much. The prevalence of 'lifestyle' shows helped change all that.

What happens when you rip out a wall or pull down a ceiling is that all of the dust that accumlated while the place was being built is released. It gets all through the house and of course you are breathing it in for days after you have finished the job. The mask etc protects you while you're doing the job but the dust doesn't just disappear, it hangs around on the furniture and on the walls.

Granted you would have to be very unlucky to get a fibre in your lung from that. I hope to God that I'm not that unlucky, because I have been there and done that in the renovation game. I don't want to go the way John did. It's like Emphysema but is excruciatingly painful in the later stages. He had been suffering with a sore back for years before he finally went to get it checked out, by which time it was too late to do anything.

I've done some risky things in this regard over the years but I'd never encourage anyone to do them on a public forum (like the doing your own wiring debate). You're probably right about it being over-hyped but I just don't think it's worth the risk when its a problem that has a solution (albeit a costly one).

[Barry_White]

I tend believe what Pawnhead says is correct on the various types of asbestos.

I was exposed to asbestos dust in my early 20's in the early 60's from cutting up old log cabin profile fibro with an angle grinder.

Again in the late 60's and the early and mid 70's cutting holes with an angle grinder in fibro walls to install oil heaters. And then again in the late 70's and early 80's whilst building my house using asbestos laden Hardiplank and Hardiflex. Some of this also was cut using an angle grinder.

As far as my health is concerned the healthiest part of my body is my lungs as was proved when I had my heart bypass operation one of the things that concerns them in the hospital is clearing congestion from the lungs after the operation and they make you suck on a little plastic thing with plastic balls in it and you have to draw these balls up to the top of three tubes and it usually takes the average person after the operation a week to accomplish getting all three balls up to the top of the tubes. I accomplished this after only two days in which the physiotherapist reckoned it was one of the best she had seen.

My point of all this is that I am at more concerned of dying from heart problems, diabetes, a stroke, nephritis or kidney failure, suffering from a melanoma from being sun burnt in my teens, being crippled by arthritis in the knees than I am of getting asbestosis or mesothelioma.

There are several things that we do through our lives that make us susceptible to various diseases such as eating too much fast or processed food that have a bigger chance of killing us than breathing in a bit of asbestos dust.

Sure we need to avoid the asbestos dust if we can but it's the same with sun cancers, heart disease, strokes and many other diseases. There are people out there that would go to extremes to avoid the asbestos dust but the same people would think nothing of stuffing themselves everyday with fast food that has more potential to kill them than the asbestos and the lead time is about the same in creating the damage.

You don't see governments legislating against fast food and to get rid of it safely.

I'm sorry but that is my philosophy.

Here is a pic of the thing they make you suck on to teat your lung capacity.

[silentC]

Even modern fibro has warnings on it now regarding danger of inhaling the dust.

Bazza, most of what you say you have done would be no different to what my sparky mate did before he retired. I think he was unlucky but it shows that it can happen to anyone. How the architect got it is a mystery but we can only assume that it was from either being exposed to it on site or from building/doing up his own houses.

You're right, there are plenty of other things that can take you off. Some of them you can do nothing about. But I don't agree with the argument that this being the case you should just not worry about it. It's too late for us because we've all been there and done it. Let's hope we are not the unlucky 0.009&#37; or whatever. But for people thinking of doing it now, they need to be aware that there IS a risk, regardless how small and they can do something to mitigate it.

[Barry_White]

Even modern fibro has warnings on it now regarding danger of inhaling the dust.

Bazza, most of what you say you have done would be no different to what my sparky mate did before he retired. I think he was unlucky but it shows that it can happen to anyone. How the architect got it is a mystery but we can only assume that it was from either being exposed to it on site or from building/doing up his own houses.

You're right, there are plenty of other things that can take you off. Some of them you can do nothing about. But I don't agree with the argument that this being the case you should just not worry about it. It's too late for us because we've all been there and done it. Let's hope we are not the unlucky 0.009% or whatever. But for people thinking of doing it now, they need to be aware that there IS a risk, regardless how small and they can do something to mitigate it.

Silent

I'm not advocating not protecting your self from the dust now that we know about the dangers. But we should also protect ourselves from the sun now we know about melanomas, or protecting our selves from heart disease now we know about what fast food does to us and all the other things that we know about and can protect ourselves from.

I suppose now we know all about these things we have options on choosing how we finally go it's just a matter of how much pain we want to suffer in going. At the age of 68 I do get to think how will I go, not that I am getting morbid about it because I still think and feel like a 40 year old I just can't do all the things a 40 year old can do.

Any way I'm out of this discussion.

[OBBob]

You don't see governments legislating against fast food and to get rid of it safely.

Actually I agree with BW and Pawnhead ... but for interest sake and because I love following these areguments ... in the eastern states today is the first day back at school and thye have banned the sale of soft drinks in tuckshops! Confectionary is to be ban by 2008.

Sorry it's off topic I know but I think its a good thing.

[silentC]

OK, well look, the points I am making are simply:

1. I know of two people, one deceased, who came into contact with the stuff in a similar way to many of us here might have done. The fact that one is dead and the other has been diagnosed with ultimately terminal asbestos-related illness indicates to me that it is not restricted to people who came into contact with high levels of it.

2. I'm opposed to publically encouraging people to handle the stuff on this forum, just as I am to advising people it's OK to do their own wiring.

That's it in a nutshell. The rest is just interesting debate, but those two things I am sure of.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Silent Sparkies were/are at risk because the boards in the fuse boxes were made of or insulated with asbestos. and they are always drilling into them when changing the wireing.

[silentC]

The sparky is still alive though. What about the architect? You don't suppose there's asbestos in those old-fashioned drafting machines do you?

[pawnhead]

OK, well look, the points I am making are simply:

1. I know of two people, one deceased, who came into contact with the stuff in a similar way to many of us here might have done. The fact that one is dead and the other has been diagnosed with ultimately terminal asbestos-related illness indicates to me that it is not restricted to people who came into contact with high levels of it.

2. I'm opposed to publically encouraging people to handle the stuff on this forum, just as I am to advising people it's OK to do their own wiring.

That's it in a nutshell. The rest is just interesting debate, but those two things I am sure of.

Well I do a lot of my own wiring as well. I'm not encouraging others to do the same though, just as I'm not encouraging anyone to dump a bit of asbestos sheet in a plastic bag in the bottom of your bin each week, nor am I encouraging anyone to hold up a petrol station. I'm just saying what I'd do, and what I asses the risks as. People reading this should be responsible enough to do their own research and come to their own conclusions. The internet is full of nasties, but the beauty is that you can generally say what you believe without being censored. That's up to the owner of the forum, but if they were my forums, then you could say just about whatever you wanted, so long as you weren't being offensive toward anyone. There's a lot of information that can be gleaned because of this, and without it, perhaps government sponsored scare campaigns might be the rule of the roost.

The sparky is still alive though. What about the architect? You don't suppose there's asbestos in those old-fashioned drafting machines do you?

I suppose it's good reason to stay away from drafting machines. As I've mentioned, there are cases of mesothelioma, from people who have had no contact with asbestos related products at all. And some people are just allergic to the twenty first century, and anything with man made chemicals in it at all.

Thems' the breaks.

Silent Sparkies were/are at risk because the boards in the fuse boxes were made of or insulated with asbestos. and they are always drilling into them when changing the wireing.

Not to mention crawling around in roof spaces lined with loose sprayed blue asbestos insulation.

[silentC]

People reading this should be responsible enough to do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

There are a lot of stupid people out there (not suggesting anyone here is). That's my stance on the matter. Should we protect them from themselves, or let Darwin sort them out? Hmm, it's an attractive proposition in many ways...

[pawnhead]

Best advice might be to tell them to get lost and do a course at tech, or call an expert.
Doing anything yourself is just plain stupid. You might cut off your head with a power saw if you haven't got a university degree in power sawology.

[silentC]

a university degree in power sawism.

I bet these guys don't have one: http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=44362