Piano, a new question on finish

[stars1234]

G'day all,

I joined the forum a month ago, but been laid up with a bad back so, had to miss out on being here.

I've made searches on this but am coming up with conflicting suggestions. I need help on my piano's finish.

this is a very expensive, good size, grand piano.

The finish is ebony, super-high gloss, Polyester (not shellac or varnish).
It is about as close as you can come to a mirror finish on wood.

Dust kills it. If wiped dry, or just blow on the dust, it will put scratches into it.
I found that even a sheet of music paper set on the music desk, scratched it terribly.
but I'm told these can all be rubbed out, but not very many times.

When the light hits the surface just right (or wrong), you can see swirl marks left by buffing, and a zillion tiny scratches that got there from my music paper, before I realized the cloth I had between the wood and the paper was also too scratchy--dummy me, I used satin.

Instead, I should have used the softest, non-lint, cotton, I can find. To clean the finish, I use just plain water on an old T-shirt that's been washed about a 100 times. then wipe it dry with the same kind of cloth.

I'd like to get out the swirl marks and tiny scratches.
As I mentioned, my search has left me with conflicting information as to what to do.

what has been recommended the most is to use Rottenstone, diluted in mineral oil, for a rub.
Then go at it carefully by hand.

I was told if I use water with the Rottenstone it will cut too quickly, so use the mineral oil, instead.

I've also come across articles that say Rottenstone can ruin a finish, especially by changing its color and getting into the wood, even if it's sealed. If that happened it'd be a disaster to the polyester and the clear, mirror of the piano's finish.

With this finish, there is no wax on it, nor can there be.

I do have a pump-type spray, that's made especially for high-gloss polyester, vs something used for a semi-gloss or satin finish. this isn't a wax--I don't know what it is--hidden ingrediants, but I know it's only for high gloss polyester.

The company makes other polish/cleaners for semi-gloss/satin finishes, as well as wood that is finished with varnish, french oil, shellac--but this is specific to polyester.

So here I am.
I have a box of Rottenstone, a cotton cloth,
a bottle of baby (mineral) oil, and a piano with a very tiny scratches and swirl marks -- into polyester.

Now what? the swirl marks are hard to see, as are the scratches, but a spot-light shows them.

Is rottenstone the correct thing to use? what about mineral oil? Am I going to be left with a gummy residue?

I also need to be extremely careful, because around the edges of some of the wood is felt. Using oil scares me. If oil get's into the felt, as well as any of the wood, it's a goner.

Any of you who have worked with polyester, I'd sure appreciate suggestions. -- I think I mentioned, I'm planning to hand rub this--a small section at a time.

It may take a year, but I want an absolute, unblemished mirror, when it's all done.

Thanks mates,
Bob

[Bob38S]

G'day Bob and welcome,

Firstly let me say that I'm no great finisher, certainly not up to a professional piano finish but there appears to be something major here. I find it very strange that .....

Quote
"Dust kills it. If wiped dry, or just blow on the dust, it will put scratches into it.
I found that even a sheet of music paper set on the music desk, scratched it terribly.
but I'm told these can all be rubbed out, but not very many times."

How old is the piano?

Is it still the original finish or has it been refinished?

Any pix of the problem?

You do need to be aware that any highly polished surface will be a "dust magnet"- but I still find it very strange that this is damaging the finish with normal maintenance procedures - the finish should be able to handle that - very strange.

Regards,
Bob

[durwood]

Swirl marks and tiny scratches are the top end result in achieving a mirror finish.

The coating on your piano is only about the thickness of a couple of pieces of paper any attempt to use anything with an abrasive action will quickly destroy the surface.

The swirl marks are probably from a lambs wools bvuff pad on a buffing machine even soft wool will show up a mark on high gloss black.

The only way it could be improved is to apply a wax/polish coating designed to eliminate swirl marks. these are used by the automotive trade and industry to get rid of swirl marks. It will fill the marks and protect the polyester from further scratching as the surface will have a layer of the polish on it which will be the one to cop the marking. These polishes won't do any harm they are designed to protect.

You state "with this finish there is no wax on it, nor can there be '

Do you mean - it is not allowed to apply wax or you don't have any on there as you know for certain that is the case?

Rossenstone, or any material with an abrasive leaning will make it worse and whatever you use or rub with keep away fromthe edges, only the flat surfaces show the faults and the edges are thinner and easier to rub through. Once you rub off the black refinishing it will be anywhere from expensive to impossible depending on available skilled p[ainters. As you can see any small fault the whole panel would probably need to be done.

Unfortunately choosing black as a colour means you are always going to have a problem maintaining a mirror blemish free finish, maybe you should have bought a white piano. You wouldn't see any marks on it even after the cat ran across it.

[stars1234]

thanks bob & durwood.

I'm beginning to get the idea that Rottenstone may just be a rotten thing to try.

I'm sure glad for the answers.

the refinisher I talked to said no more than 2 buffing outs could be done--I guess that goes along with the polyester being very thin--not more than a sheet or 2 of paper in thickness.

It definitely is a dust magnet. And dust will scratch it--as strange as it seems. When a spot-light hits those places it's obvious.

this piano is "new," at least in pristine condition, except where I stupidly put satin over the music desk. Now I use a cotton T-shirt. this is the original finish.

the swirl marks are exactly as you said dur, from a lambs wool buffing.

All I've read about the finish says in big letters Do Not Wax. Is there a wax I can use? Is there anything that is very thin that might smooth out the swirls with hand rubbing?

I already tried an automotive store, actually several, but no one had ever heard of a polyester finish and what to do to preserve it. I guess, they weren't high-end, enough?

For an experiment, I tried a dremel like tool on a small scratch, with a lambs wool disc attached to it and very gently, hardly touching the finish, went over the scratch. The scratch disappeared. I wonder if I could do this to all of them--I used virtually no pressure.

If there's a magic product to use on this, that will work with hand rubbing, let me know. I'll try to find another auto store.

I know it's possible to get the swirls & scratches out, it's just knowing how to do it and what to use. Here in the USA, pianos are not finished with polyester, but either varnish or a lacquer (which is like poly). the poly piano's come from Europe. It's really irritating what a spec of dust or a touch of a finger will do to the finish. But that's what I get for getting a "super" high-gloss, black piano.

Maybe this stuff I bought that's especially for high-gloss polyester piano finishes is the same thing that's sold in the auto stores?

It's a Cory product, that is supposed to take out finger prints, give some protection (I don't know what kind), and help with static. So far, it seems to be working. But it sure is expensive. 1 quart in a pump spray bottle, retails for more than $20 US.

Yes, bob, dust will truly scratch the mirror finish, touch the wood and there is a finger print. Dur... I could have gotten a white piano, they even had one that was made out of clear plastic. and one that was Purple too. But black is the standard color for a performance instrument.

If I had gone with a satin finish, I wouldn't have these problems.

Sounds like my best bet then is definitely not use the Rottenstone. Try to find something at the automotive store to protect what is still there and realize that this will be an ongoing problem and as far as the scratches and swirls I can see, I'm not too sure what can be done about them.

I did read somewhere, that with a very special lambs wool, they can be taken out, but I've lost the article.

When buffing a finish like this, does the buffing actually remove some of the polyester or does it instead, build up just enough heat to let the finish that's there, flow into the damaged areas--I'm betting the scratches are about .001 inch deep. But that's enough to be seen.

Maybe, as you say durwood, a cat would help? I could get a cat, dip it's paws in purple paint and let it walk across the top, keys, dangle it against the sides, and no one would ever notice the high-end swirl marks.

Do you by any chance know the names of the kind of auto products you mentioned? I don't know if it's allowed to post that kind of info, (or can you PM me with it) but it'd be helpful.

Polyester sure is hard to work with. But when it's done, it's Grand (pun intended--ha).

If there are more ideas, please tell me. And thank you for the help given.

I'm going to try to find answers on google on how to take cover swirl marks on a high-end auto finish. Maybe that is the answer.
not sure if I answered everything about the wax==about all I know is that there is for certain no wax on it and the manufacturer says- to never, ever put wax on the finish--I guess it'd dull it, maybe even turn yellow?

Thanks for all the help.
Bob

[durwood]

Bob, seek out a supplier of "Meguires" car care products or better still contact there tech people at head office. They will have suitable products as well as aplication pads etc. they specialise in what you need.

[stars1234]

Thanks to both of you.

thanks durwood for the final solution or should I say the beginning of the long road to keeping this finish as clear as possible. Meguires it will be. I think I saw it at the auto stores, but no one seemed to know how to use it. (Maybe I can use it on my 1969 Camaro as well--I'm the original owner.)

The stuff I am using on the piano is definitely a polish of some sort, not a wax. I just read in an auto forum, they suggest for swirl marks, once things are as good as you can get with the lambs wool, apply whatever the final polish will be, do not buff it; but let it set for a while so it gets fully into the swirl marks or tiny scratches, then buff out by hand. But they didn't indicated what to use to buff.


they did say, lambs wool is too hard and may tend to hold tiny grit, which would defeat the whole thing.

So, what's a cloth that can be used for buffing, that will not scratch, plus not catch grit and destroy things? Or could the final buffing be done with the bare hand?

While I'm thinking about cloth for doing the final finish, does anyone have any suggestions as to what kind of fabric to put over the music desk (the part of the piano that holds the music), so the paper of the music will not come in contact with the finish? As I mentioned previously, I had draped satin over it and that was a disaster.

Thanks for the help mates. Have a great g'day.
Bob