Today school system

[SPIRIT]

Hate to tell you this little secret Spirit.......money doesn't have anything to do with happiness.

Except perhaps that if you believe money buys you happiness then you will be unhappy if you don't have enough...with enough always being any amount more than you what you have...

What l believe is you must try your best at being happy,
*work hard to gain the respect other people in your life
*find a partner that will help you get to you to your shared goals
*you have to try your best to raise and teach your children to the best of you abilety for the road ahead of them (this should be done by example)

what l am saying is it is easier to work with a full belly

[sawdustmike]

Luv these threads. Schools reflect society, believe it or not! The system was put in place so that the premier universities could pick the top 5 or so % of students and to bugger the rest. Not much has changed, just window dressing.

What is happening now in education is a result of political influence which has nothing to do with good outcomes but rather empire building. The poor teacher is but a lowley serf in a thankless system.

Don't knock the money the gov gives the private schools. Per head it is far less than what is given to state schools. Don't forget, private school parents are tax payers too (usually heaps of tax) and if they all took their kids out and placed them in state schools there would be meltdown. Think of it as private school parents subsidise state schools.

[Bleedin Thumb]

That doesn't sound right to me. I did a quick search on the net and found this, part of a interview with Angelo Gavrelatos - Deputy president of the Australian Education Union (sorry I cant vouch for its credibility)

"
It started in the 1960s as the result of a campaign by the Catholic schools, which account for the largest percentage of private schools in Australia. The Catholics threatened to close down their schools in a country town west of Sydney, in essence blackmailing the government by saying they would bring down the entire education system because the public schools could not have immediately coped with the extra children.
As a result of that campaign, the government started funding private schools, first through monies targeted for science and libraries. Year by year, the funding increased to the point where the federal government now gives what we call recurrent funding — or in your terms, ongoing per-pupil funding — to the private schools. What started as a campaign allegedly based on need has become a program where private schools feel they are automatically entitled to public funds. Between 2005 and 2008, the federal government will give 75 percent of recurrent education funding to private schools. "

This is inspite of the fact that 75% of children go to public schools.

[SPIRIT]

Luv these threads. Schools reflect society, believe it or not! The system was put in place so that the premier universities could pick the top 5 or so % of students and to bugger the rest. Not much has changed, just window dressing.

What is happening now in education is a result of political influence which has nothing to do with good outcomes but rather empire building. The poor teacher is but a lowley serf in a thankless system.

Don't knock the money the gov gives the private schools. Per head it is far less than what is given to state schools. Don't forget, private school parents are tax payers too (usually heaps of tax) and if they all took their kids out and placed them in state schools there would be meltdown. Think of it as private school parents subsidise state schools.

The rich get richer the poorer get stuffed

[SPIRIT]

That doesn't sound right to me. I did a quick search on the net and found this, part of a interview with Angelo Gavrelatos - Deputy president of the Australian Education Union (sorry I cant vouch for its credibility)

"
It started in the 1960s as the result of a campaign by the Catholic schools, which account for the largest percentage of private schools in Australia. The Catholics threatened to close down their schools in a country town west of Sydney, in essence blackmailing the government by saying they would bring down the entire education system because the public schools could not have immediately coped with the extra children.
As a result of that campaign, the government started funding private schools, first through monies targeted for science and libraries. Year by year, the funding increased to the point where the federal government now gives what we call recurrent funding — or in your terms, ongoing per-pupil funding — to the private schools. What started as a campaign allegedly based on need has become a program where private schools feel they are automatically entitled to public funds. Between 2005 and 2008, the federal government will give 75 percent of recurrent education funding to private schools. "

This is inspite of the fact that 75% of children go to public schools.

Makes you proud to be a tax pay dosen't it (Basteds)

[sawdustmike]

I said gov funding. State gov ed funds go almost entirely to state schools. As I said before, private school parents subsidise state schools - through the tax system. Don't get me wrong, I think the state school sysyem should not be a poor alternative to those who can't afford private schools. The funding given to state schools is more than adequate, they just waste it on a huge bureaucracy instead of at the coal face where it is desperately needed.

[SPIRIT]

Andy Mac were is your 2 bobs ,you seem to be doing the work that is needed more in the public system ,any word of wisdom

[bennylaird]

Worst thing about teaching?

The lack of spare time to do woodwork.

Where can I get one of those 9-3 positions?

Best thing? The enjoyment of heading off to work each day to see what you can do to help some kid progress in his/her choosen field.

[Bleedin Thumb]

As I said before, private school parents subsidise state schools - through the tax system.

Sorry Mike that is like saying all healthy people subsidise sick people or pedestrians subsidise motorists... that is the nature of taxation its used for lots of things.

I have a problem with my taxation going The C of E or the Catholic or the Prod's etc as they are some of the wealthiest organisations around - they make billions each year and don't pay a cent in tax.

It seems strange that after charging parents for a private education they still want public funding.

I don't think private school parents subsidise state schools at all, I think private schools are diverting much needed public funds away from the public schools.

If they want the tax payer to give them money they should let children of all religions into their schools and start paying taxes on all the business transactions.
Rant off

[Andy Mac]

Hey Spirit,
I've been reading with interest, but haven't all that much to do with the high school system lately. I teach at uni level, have done for nearly 15yrs, and could say a lot more about that, but I won't. Also, my kids aren't up to high school yet, another year or so, then I'll get to see what goes on.

However, I have run a couple of art workshops in high schools, mostly country towns, with Flying Arts and other programs. I think each school has its own unique culture, and the attitude of students is a direct result of the culture. It would seem that the whole teacher body, and how happy they are in their jobs, has a lot to do with it. If the principal or other senior staff have been in the job for too long, that is reflected by lack of passion or interest, and passes down through the staff. I guess that happens in primary schools and also universities.
Another thing to add to the mix is the support shown by P&C etc, not just the extra funds, but the sense of pride in the school filters down to the students. No active parent participation=we don't care about the students.
I'm sure the socio-economic area of the school has some influence on the culture too: a majority of students with low self-esteem or sense of opportunities for the future would be a real disaster.
I agree with Bitingmidge, that this push to keep as many students to Y12 is complete garbage. Students who would prefer to be out in the workforce are not doing themselves or their fellow students any favours. Maybe it has also bled trades of apprentices as well?
I went to a very large state school for Y8. and absolutely hated it (a real shock after a tiny country school), whereas my twin sister revelled in it. I then went to Y12 at a private boarding school, and muddled through. Not quite out of my league, just lacked a bit of direction. Some of the teachers there were outstanding, very motivated and supportive. And some were classic chalkies, had been there far too long. In hindsight I think that school was setup for high achievers, and anyone who wanted to get there was richly rewarded.
It looks like my kids will be going to a state high school, but there are a number to pick from here, and there would seem to be a distinct difference in them...am I right WB?!

Cheers,

[Bleedin Thumb]

I said gov funding. State gov ed funds go almost entirely to state schools...... The funding given to state schools is more than adequate, they just waste it on a huge bureaucracy instead of at the coal face where it is desperately needed.

The way the state government allocates education money is dictated by the federal Government.

What huge bureacracy would that be?... it seem to me that the whole show is run on a shoe string, but I'm not employed in an eduction department so I don't really know, but I'm guessing its nowhere as top heavy as Health, Roads, WorkerCover, Environment etc, and I bet the private schools have similar layers of bureacracy.

Sorry Mike, you may have noticed I'm a bit one eyed on this subject.

[wheelinround]

Bit of a hard one that...just because a school has funds in the bank doesn't mean that the funds aren't allocated to future upgrades but on the other hand they do like to cry poor but when you do work for them suddenly more funds miraculously become available.

If you want to really see whats going on go for a wander through a private school like Kings or Cranbrook and smell the money.

Not only do these schools charge the parents ..(I'm guessing here) $10k? a term but they also get more money from the government (your tax) than is allocated to public schools.........

However as I said before just because a school is well resourced doesn't mean the kids are any happier, mind you the promise of the Ferrari upon graduation may just put a smile on your face

Many of schools bank accounts and funding weather state or Federal are applied for not just by HM but also P&C's they have to stippulate what the grant is to be used.
Often gets sidetracked and or is never used due to changes of HM or P&C, this is missmanegment or fraud.
Many educational staff rort the system for personal gains, of anything from paper clips to using workshop machinery and stock meant for kids. Like everyone they bargin for lowest price but expect the best for it.
Yep your right it's your tax money which is siting idle while they close schools for 3 months computers tools you name it it's there.

Kings & Cranbrook PLC Barker been there done them, did a few country privates also & many other Nth shore schools,, even ones from QLD who came to SYD when driving.. day and a few days...
.....I RFLMAO when I saw many a boy's uniform in taters school has handmedown stall. Some from those days 80's have attitude other boys n girls have manners and realise tomorrow they could be in public and broke.

Ferrari insurance $$$$ fuel $$$$ yeh ok if I got one no need to worry
biggest trouble no where to drive the plucker at its best no room for much inside either Lamborgini same.

Another thing to add to the mix is the support shown by P&C etc, not just the extra funds, but the sense of pride in the school filters down to the students. No active parent participation=we don't care about the students.
I'm sure the socio-economic area of the school has some influence on the culture too: a majority of students with low self-esteem or sense of opportunities for the future would be a real disaster.

I became president of P&C of my kids first Primary school one with just 90 pupils but still in Sydneys west. A HM change saw him try to railroad $20k+ meant for a tennis court, to be left till HE decided what it was used for parents almost lynched him they got their tennis court.
He then held my son and P&C Vic pres son to ransom sent out of class everytime he walked into it left out in sun for hrs.
Why"?? he wanted his P&C meetings during his work hrs he wanted all mother no males, he wanted all bank accounts signed over to him. I almost lost my job due to me having take time of to sort stuff out finally I resigned as did others and pulled our kids out,
P&C main would do nothing dept of ed would not investigate. At 3 other schools they attended (moved to country) we were asked to join P&C and very polite we declined but still got involved.

As for kids staying to yr 12 employers were screaming as were TAFE teachers due to lack of basics kids couldn't do, also WC & OH&S policies meant kids at 16 couldn't use tools etc even be on site. Stupid when kids around Tamworth were driving $$$$$ tractors etc and looking after properties and stubd bulls rams worth more than $5000 lathe they were told is tooooo dangerous you have no concept of responibility or danger.

Parents from as soon as they can teach their children they have to grow u while teachers hold them back saying your only a KID your here to learn many ask WHAT???

[SPIRIT]

Best thing? The enjoyment of heading off to work each day to see what you can do to help some kid progress in his/her choosen field.

l deal with the kid that are getting rejected from the systemy,year 12 bloody hell some l would be happy with year 9.As my boss said you need only save one and it is all worth it .
Thanks andy for the 2 bobs
l do think schools need to rethink how they run, parent need to be involved, most parent wont the best for thier kids, when my kids were at primary school the parent were a big part of it and l saw how it made a diffrents not sitting in meetings but out there with the kids helping the teachers ,sport days ,reading,excursions,ect, sadly at high school this is not the norm
l went for a job (bunnings)and you answer all them dumb questions well one was give a example of where you have got feed back from your work

l got the most thank you card in one year than anybody else befor
l think l knew all the kids name in year 4,5 and 1/2 the year 6

elders seem to have lost thier way in todays society,is this because they have no part in the eduction of the young

Do we need to change it or just tweek up the education system

[sawdustmike]

Yes BL, I can see that you are passionate about this subject. I tend to be a bit more ambivilant.

We will never agree on the tax thing so we can leave it there.

Parents send their kids to PS for a range of reasons. Some for status symbol, some as old boys/old girls, but most choose because the state system fails, in a lot of cases, to deliver what they want as an education for the kids. This is an unfortunate reality bought about by many things beyond the scope of this thread.

The state system does receive adequate funding, it is how they use it that is the problem. They have HUGE layers of admin to contend with, possibly more admin staff than teachers. The Catholic system has a similar setup but not as vast.

Any decent PS will take a student regardless of race , creed or colour. There are some PS (catholic usually) that pay their fees to the church and receive a % back. I think this is unethical and they should have that amount removed from the much vaunted gov funding (I wait with bated breath!). Some PS shove fundamental dogma down the students throat and this says more about the parents that send their kids to these schools than the brain washing rant of the schools themselves.

My two lower primary girls go to a PS and I shopped around to find the best place for them, there was some very good state schools around but none could offer the whole package that my girls currently receive. They have to go to chapel once a week, but religion is not stuffed down their throats. If they didn't go, they would only get my jaundiced caustic view of organised religion rather than a word from t' other side to balance things up a bit.

I don't believe it is a rich person thing anymore to send your kids to PS. We are by no means rich, or well off even. We value the education our kids receive and the fact we pay dearly for it is of no relevance. Our kids education is what I am passionate about, not the hoary old chestnut of public V private.

Happy woodworking

[Bleedin Thumb]

I agree with what your saying - except the tax thing. I have my two boys in the State system kindy and Grade 1..and I am very critical and disappointed about some things. Things that could be fixed by proper funding.

As a result we may be putting them into a private school if we can find one we like and afford - I also know a couple who took their son out of private because they were having the same issues were having with state.

If the problem is inefficient administration - reform it, but dont starve public education. All this is doing is creating a class society based on education. That to me is revisionist and counter productive.

To be fair though even if a government was brave enough to stop funding private schools the money probably wouldn't get spent on public schools.....it probably go on some desalination plant or some other white elephant.