![Thanks](https://www.renovateforums.com.au/dbtech/thanks/images/thanks.png)
![Likes](https://www.renovateforums.com.au/dbtech/thanks/images/likes.png)
![Needs Pictures](https://www.woodworkforums.com/images/smilies/happy/photo4.gif)
![Picture(s) thanks](https://www.ubeaut.biz/wave.gif)
Results 16 to 25 of 25
Thread: Finger sensing table saw.
-
22nd December 2005, 11:31 PM #16
Who is it for
Just had a look at the video of this product. First time I have seen it.
Running woodwork classes for beginners in Japan, I can see that it may be a good product for trade schools or community workshops or clubs where the liability for owners to users is fairly large.
In an owner operator environment, I would imagine that most woodworkers would rather operate safely and know that if they are careless, it will cost them a finger.
Bit like a seat belt though. Better to teach drivers how to drive without crashing in the first place.
Steve
-
23rd December 2005, 10:46 PM #17
Originally Posted by TritonJapan
I've never had an injury causing incident with a power tool. However, I have had a kickback on the tablesaw. The kids had fiddled with the fence alignment (I didn't notice) angling it inwards to the blade. The workpiece only winded me luckily. I once neglected to remove the chuck key from a drill press and wore that in the rib cage (it's now on a wire that is fixed to the drill press).
All that and I am bloody paranoid. Unfortunately the SawStop is not available here. If it does become available here, I guarantee I will be customer number one!
-
24th December 2005, 03:40 PM #18rrich Guest
Originally Posted by markharrison
There are a few individuals that have purchased 'SawStop'. I don't often hang about WoodCentral. I have seen a few glowing reviews from recent purchasers of 'SawStop'. One glowing reviewer had not finished assembling the saw but found the time to write a review. I know of a lot more people that have purchased Bosch, Craftsman, Delta, General, Jet, Powermatic, etc. table saws, self included.
Reading between the lines of SawStop's advertising in the professional trade magazines, IMHO, the saw is not selling well. The SawStop advertising started with:
Greatest thing since sliced bread
Then for a month or two, Look who is buying our product. Followed by name and date of purchase in 'Star Wars' text style. The dates were about two months behind the publication date of the magazine. (I think the dates are normal considering lead times.)
Now, when SawStop does advertise, they allude to the Greatest thing since sliced bread but more trying to push an immage of quality.
I really don't think that the saw is selling that well, which in some ways is sad. The saw should be selling to commercial shops faster than the saw can be produced. In states like California, with FUBAR workmans compensation insurance requirements, the saw could pay for itself in 5 (or less) years of reduced WC insurance premiums.
SawStop is a limitted liability corportation (LLC) and their books are not in the public record. This makes it very difficult for a potential purchaser to determine the financial health of the corporation.
Finally the big 'Chicken or the egg' issue for SawStop is replacement parts. IMHO, SawStop will not survive in business unless the stopping cartrige is available from a second, third or even a seventeenth source. A purchaser needs confidence that the investment in a major tool is servicable for many years to come. It's like automobiles. Parts are still available for something as common as an Oldsmobile or obscure as a Fair Lady.
Another reason that SawStop has difficulty in selling is initial cost. I just purchased a Delta Unisaw which included router, belt sander, Biesemeyer fence, etc. for $1813US. The same purchase for just the saw, fence and three cartriges is about $3000US. (Three cartridges, replacement 10" saw, initial dado, replacement dado.) That is a huge difference for this woodworker and the SawStop price does not include delivery or California sales taxes.
I think that the following story illustrates what went wrong. In my pre-teen years, (More than 50 years ago) my younger brother was doing a 'magic trick' for an even younger neighbor. All the sleight of hand had been done and it was time for the magic words. My brother asked the neighbor to "Say the magic word." The neighbor replied, "Please, thank you." Well my friend, that is precisely what SawStop didn't do and I think that they are paying for it in a very big way.
-
3rd January 2006, 05:28 PM #19rrich Guest
I just received the latest issue of Fine Woodworking.
I noticed a 1/6 or 1/8 page advertisement for SawStop. Again pushing the quality theme. A quote from a user saying something like that the saw is better than a brick outhouse. The picture in the advertisement is of the blade height wheel and tilt angle. It seems that the blade tilt scale is marked with rather fine marks and at one degree intervals.
This is one of the few SawStop advertisements I've seen in non-professional magazines.
This whole thing brings up another thought about saw designs. Powermatic just did a significant redesign of their cabinet saw but did not include the SawStop mechanism. I have to wonder why.
-
4th January 2006, 07:24 PM #20
Originally Posted by rrich
Originally Posted by rrich
Originally Posted by rrich
Originally Posted by rrich
Originally Posted by rrich
) is just that, a new saw with a different "price point" (as they say in marketing).
Originally Posted by rrich
Leaving aside the issue that you previously asserted that they tried to get OSHA to mandate this device (maybe you're right but I don't really care), I truly don't understand what your beef is with these guys? As I said earlier, seat belts had to be made law to make it happen. I suspect that future generations will see this device (or something like it) as fundamental as seat belts are today as the primary passive motor vehicle safety device.
Go back and look at early woodworking machinery and compare to what even exists today (which let's face it hasn't changed much since the 1950's, particularly in the USA). I for one would not want to work in those early shops. For a well preserved example, have a look in the Boeing Red Barn in Seattle.
(*) NIH -- Not Invented Here.
-
5th January 2006, 05:05 PM #21rrich Guest
Mark,
On the NIH thing. I really don't think so. I think that it is more to do with our F%$#@& up product liability laws. I have been told that if a new model is brought out with a significant safety improvement, a manufacturer can be sued for not providing retrofit kits for all of their older products. Remember we're the country that found an automobile manufacturer liable for damages when a drunk driver hit a car on the sholder of the interstate highway at 60+ MPH and severly burned the driver of the parked car.
If it isn't the liability issue, I think that the lack of a second (or more)source for the stopping cartrige is an issue. If a manufacturer puts the feature in one of their new saws. Today the cartrige is $70US but with a single source the cost could be $270US, tomorrow. Also a consistent supply of cartriges is an issue. If a manufacturer needs 1000 cartriges a month and the supply suddenly dwindles to 10 per month, the manufacturer must shut production down. If I were a manufacturer I would not want to be locked into a single source of raw materials.
SawStop is a great safety product but the way that the product is being marketed and sold is probably going to kill the product. That is really sad.
I don't know where you got the impression that the new Powermatic saw is just a model pricing scheme. This model has a very unique set of roll about casters built in. The new design also contains a true riving knife. That's a safety feature that is lacking in most other US table saws.
As for trying to get the feature mandated by the government, I have read the petition from SawStop to one of the federal agencies. (It could have been OSHA, FTC, CPSC or ???) What I came away with by reading the petition was that, IMHO, there was possibly fraudulent information in the petition. The petition included rather gruesome photos of "table saw" accidents, including a very bad amputation of 4 fingers. The only thing was that the amputation looked like it was the result of a clawing rather than a cut. If I were a gambler, I would bet that the photo was of a shaper accident and not a table saw accident. Was it a shaper accident? I can't really say. What I can say is that the photo does not look like a table saw accident to me.
You're correct, I do have a "beef" with the SawStop, which is that they don't make a right tilting model. When I bought my saw, the SawStop model was seriously considered but dropped from consideration due to the lack of a right tilting model. There it is, my "beef" exposed. And while you seem to think that I have a "beef", I've only stated facts as I know them. Anything that is an opinion, is labeled as such. (IMHO or I think) It is my preference to do business with honest and above board people. I do not like doing business with people that have hidden agendas and resort to back alley tactics. Even so, SawStop did warrant consideration for my purchase. The right tilting feature is an absolute requirement for my saw.
Well my friend, when you purchase your new SawStop be sure to purchase enough stopping cartriges for the future, because when you use the last one there may not be any additional cartriges available at any price.
Finally, my friend, you seem to have a rather strong dislike for many things American. While that's your perrogative, you do have my sympathy. I will not quibble with you over that.
-
5th January 2006, 08:14 PM #22
Originally Posted by rrich
Originally Posted by rrich
Originally Posted by rrich
Originally Posted by rrich
-
5th January 2006, 09:57 PM #23
Gents, it is normal in a peeing contest to aim downwind. It may be best to "shake" and move on, as this thread is not up to both of your usual fine standards.
.
-
6th January 2006, 08:20 AM #24rrich Guest
Mark,
May you have a happy and joyous summer solstice holiday of your choice.
-
6th January 2006, 09:43 PM #25
Originally Posted by Groggy