Restoring/Repairing Window Frame

[Widget1983]

Hi guys,

I think this is the correct place to ask this.

I have a window frame from the bathroom, not sure what year it was made, few decades old maybe, uses 'window stays. Over time the weather/water got to it and rusted out the old bottom window stay & weathered the paint/timber frame. I took t off, unfortunately it fell in storage and broke the glass, new sheet is about $100, but before I replace, I was going to fixup the frame.

The glass is held in with putty BUT I'm not 100% sure if I need some type of glue to secure the glass to the frame (& putty on the other side). There looks to be some sort of leftover product sitting between the glass and the wood frame itself so I'm assuming it needs something.

Any tips on restoring the frame itself and what to use to secure the glass? I can get putty from Bunnings but unsure what paint is best & if I need anything else.

I was just gonna scrape away all the paint, use a heat gun on anything still bonded to the frame though it looks like most of it'll scrape away easily, then sand it back with 80/120 grit before painting with a water/weather proof paint. Is this the general procedure? Due to the age, some parts of the frame are a little rougher/weathered. Any reason to use wood filler on sections?

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[droog]

Frames look in good condition compared to some I have repaired in the past.
Sand and clean the glass rebates of any old putty or sealant.
Prime and topcoat all over including the rebate with quality paint.

When the paint is dry and hardened fit the glass with a small bead of glazing silicone on the inside lip of the rebate, then fit glass and putty around the edge. Dust the glass with polyfilla powder and a soft brush, this will clean up any mess from the putty on the glass.
After around 6 weeks prime and paint the putty.

Tips:
Painting the rebate protects the frame and stops all the oil being sucked out of the putty into the timber.
Buy the putty from a local glazier, they will have a large fresh stock and will most likely be better consistency than the containers off the shelf at the big green shed.
Add linseed oil to the putty if it is too dry and polyfilla powder if it is too wet.

[Widget1983]

Thanks Droog, much appreciated

Any recommendations on paint? I had a look at the Bunnings website, I didn't realise how expensive paint was . Any alternative source to buying paint that might be cheaper? or is this the standard price for paints?

Also, if I were to paint over oil-based putty (linseed oil), even if it dries, would there be any issues with using water-based paint? Or should I be using oil-based paint to do the frame/sill?

Regarding the glazing silicone, just wondering, what would they have used previously? It looks like hardened. Perhaps another type of putty?

Can I use silicone that is used in bathroom/kitchen, or does it have to be glazing specifically?

[markharrison]

Kind of everything Droog said. I don't like using silicone on window frames but I understand why some folks do.

The old-timey way is to put a thin layer of putty down, place the glass in the frame, then secure the glass with glazing pins (Just a moment...) pushed into the frame with a flat paint scraper, and finally, the putty on the outside.

So what you are see remaining in the pane is dried old putty. You can use a heat gun to assist in getting the old dried putty off.

And yeah, paint is stupidly expensive now. Try one of the specialty paint places in your area. You may find better prices there.

I'm pretty sure I've used water based paint over putty, but this was in the last century so I can't say with certainty. Oil based enamel paint is a superior product but definitely a pain to use and clean up.

[mic-d]

What others have said, but go easy on the 80 grit since it may bring out more of the grain texture due to the harder latewood growth. You might use a wood hardener likes Earles on some of the areas that look a bit soft. Once the surface is prepped, coat with a good oil-based primer/sealer/undercoat and paint with your preferred top coat but not in the glazing rebate if it's water based. Run a small bead of putty around the rebate as a bed for the glass and bed the glass in it with a little pressure, then fix the glass with glaziers push points available at Bunnys. (YT will sure have vids on this). Thumb in another bead of putty over the rebate and weather strike with a putty knife, use a bit of linseed oil to lubricate the knife if it pulls. Aim to finish at the height of the inside timber. Leave for several weeks to skin over before painting the putty with an oil-based primer/sealer/undercoat (don't use water based) then you can top with your preferred paint. Cut the paint over the glass a little to provide a seal, do this either free hand or mask a little inside the line of the putty first.

How are you removing the old putty? The only fail safe way to do it and guarantee the glass is to steam it out. Use a cheap wall paper remover with just the hose on it to generate the steam. You'll damage the timber or the glass with a hacking knife and don't use a router because I've been warned by glaziers that some old putty had asbestos in it.

Variations:
When I built these windows: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f187/...57#post2319613
I sought out the correct water-based sealant to bed the glass, this is it below. Water-based means there is no problem with painting down the track from silicone. But I used a timber bead outside rather than putty. If you use putty, just bed it on putty as well.
IMG_0173.jpg

[droog]

Thanks Droog, much appreciated

Any recommendations on paint? I had a look at the Bunnings website, I didn't realise how expensive paint was . Any alternative source to buying paint that might be cheaper? or is this the standard price for paints?

Also, if I were to paint over oil-based putty (linseed oil), even if it dries, would there be any issues with using water-based paint? Or should I be using oil-based paint to do the frame/sill?

Regarding the glazing silicone, just wondering, what would they have used previously? It looks like hardened. Perhaps another type of putty?

Can I use silicone that is used in bathroom/kitchen, or does it have to be glazing specifically?

My goto paint is Dulux, have tried many other brands but have not been impressed. Others have their favourite but with paint it appears YMMV.

99% of all my windows are double hung sash and unless you use oil based enamel they will stick, I also use oil based undercoat for exterior.
Silicone should be neutral cure, ie no acetic acid.

[Widget1983]

Thanks so much for the advice guys , much appreciated

Kind of everything Droog said. I don't like using silicone on window frames but I understand why some folks do.

The old-timey way is to put a thin layer of putty down, place the glass in the frame, then secure the glass with glazing pins (Just a moment...) pushed into the frame with a flat paint scraper, and finally, the putty on the outside.

So what you are see remaining in the pane is dried old putty. You can use a heat gun to assist in getting the old dried putty off.

And yeah, paint is stupidly expensive now. Try one of the specialty paint places in your area. You may find better prices there.

I'm pretty sure I've used water based paint over putty, but this was in the last century so I can't say with certainty. Oil based enamel paint is a superior product but definitely a pain to use and clean up.

I've watched a couple of videos & they used the putty method. Is there any benefit to using putty over silicone? Thanks for the tip on removing the old stuff with a heat gun, I'll give that a shot . What happens though when heating? Jsut starts to crack/separate from the frame?

Thanks for the link to the pins , I'll have to grab a pack next time I'm there. We have a few windows that may need re-doing, though certainly need repainting.

I'll have to quote around for some prices. Are there any places that woodworkers/renovators like to visit that sell excess stock/End-of-line products (ie paint) at a reduced price?

What others have said, but go easy on the 80 grit since it may bring out more of the grain texture due to the harder latewood growth. You might use a wood hardener likes Earles on some of the areas that look a bit soft. Once the surface is prepped, coat with a good oil-based primer/sealer/undercoat and paint with your preferred top coat but not in the glazing rebate if it's water based. Run a small bead of putty around the rebate as a bed for the glass and bed the glass in it with a little pressure, then fix the glass with glaziers push points available at Bunnys. (YT will sure have vids on this). Thumb in another bead of putty over the rebate and weather strike with a putty knife, use a bit of linseed oil to lubricate the knife if it pulls. Aim to finish at the height of the inside timber. Leave for several weeks to skin over before painting the putty with an oil-based primer/sealer/undercoat (don't use water based) then you can top with your preferred paint. Cut the paint over the glass a little to provide a seal, do this either free hand or mask a little inside the line of the putty first.

How are you removing the old putty? The only fail safe way to do it and guarantee the glass is to steam it out. Use a cheap wall paper remover with just the hose on it to generate the steam. You'll damage the timber or the glass with a hacking knife and don't use a router because I've been warned by glaziers that some old putty had asbestos in it.

Variations:
When I built these windows: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f187/...57#post2319613
I sought out the correct water-based sealant to bed the glass, this is it below. Water-based means there is no problem with painting down the track from silicone. But I used a timber bead outside rather than putty. If you use putty, just bed it on putty as well.
IMG_0173.jpg

Thanks Mic. Judging by the look of the paint on the frame, I might be able to skip 80grit & just scrape it off with a paint scraper (or pickup a carbide scraper like the uni-pro from Bunnings?) &/or use 120-160grit

When you say a bit soft, you mean like water damaged timber that weakens the wood?

Do you recommend a good brand & is it better to have separate primer/undercoat or can you use one that's all-in-one?

Why not use water-based in the rebate? The putty won't stick?
What do you mean by finishing at the height of the inside timber? Start putty along bottom then work the sides then finish at top?

I haven't attempted to remove any old putty just yet. Most of it has broken away with age/weather damage & when the frame fell over breaking the glass. I was just going to get a flat-head screwdriver & hammer then chip it away. A wall-paper remover steamer I don't have but I do have one of those kettle-shaped steam cleaners. Assuming that would work too? How does steam help to remove the old putty?
Thanks for the tip about the no-router. Didn't think about asbestos :/. The house/window is an old Fibro-style house from the 70s from what I've been told. Not sure about the paint though.

Those are some nice windows you have, very nice work . If that's the case, perhaps it'll just be easier to stick with putty+oil based primer/paint ?

My goto paint is Dulux, have tried many other brands but have not been impressed. Others have their favourite but with paint it appears YMMV.

99% of all my windows are double hung sash and unless you use oil based enamel they will stick, I also use oil based undercoat for exterior.
Silicone should be neutral cure, ie no acetic acid.

Is 'undercoat' the same as 'primer'? Our windows are just screwed to a 'stay', but still best to stay with oil-based paint? I'll have to check out the Dulux range. Do you get yours from Bunnings or other? I'll have to call around and get some prices to try keep costs down. Soon we'll need to repaint all the windows and window frames (about 7 windows + few extra frames with non-movable windows.)


Thanks again for the information. Much appreciated

[mic-d]

Answers in the quote below

Thanks Mic. Judging by the look of the paint on the frame, I might be able to skip 80grit & just scrape it off with a paint scraper (or pickup a carbide scraper like the uni-pro from Bunnings?) &/or use 120-160grit

When you say a bit soft, you mean like water damaged timber that weakens the wood?

In your second photo, the rail looks a bit soft near where it joins the stile, if you can easily stick something in it then use a hardener. It may just be a trick of the light though.

Do you recommend a good brand & is it better to have separate primer/undercoat or can you use one that's all-in-one?
I use Dulux 1 Step primer sealer undercoat, it's all in one, oil-based, recoat in just one hour, touch dry in 30min or less


Why not use water-based in the rebate? The putty won't stick?
Best not to especially if it's the top coat, I think it's more compatible to the oil-based undercoat, especially more compatible than an acrylic top coat.

What do you mean by finishing at the height of the inside timber? Start putty along bottom then work the sides then finish at top?

When you look from the inside of the window, you shouldn't see too much/any putty on the outside, just the paint line. It's completely an aesthetic thing, but that is what you should aim for. I've noticed sometimes that the push pins I use mean the putty has to come a bit higher to cover them, maybe the rebate was smaller on those windows, I don't remember...

I haven't attempted to remove any old putty just yet. Most of it has broken away with age/weather damage & when the frame fell over breaking the glass. I was just going to get a flat-head screwdriver & hammer then chip it away. A wall-paper remover steamer I don't have but I do have one of those kettle-shaped steam cleaners. Assuming that would work too? How does steam help to remove the old putty?

Try the steamer. You don't want to damage the wood because you can't get a neat putty edge then. It softens the putty a little and breaks the bond to the wood, use a scraper to dig out. I'll go grab a YT video I saw a few years ago. I saw this, bought a $10 second hand wall paper steamer and haven't looked back.

Here its: Easiest way to remove window glazing - YouTube

This is another one that popped up when I searched for the one above:

How to Remove Window Putty Using Steam - YouTube


Thanks for the tip about the no-router. Didn't think about asbestos :/. The house/window is an old Fibro-style house from the 70s from what I've been told. Not sure about the paint though.

Those are some nice windows you have, very nice work . If that's the case, perhaps it'll just be easier to stick with putty+oil based primer/paint ?




Is 'undercoat' the same as 'primer'? Our windows are just screwed to a 'stay', but still best to stay with oil-based paint? I'll have to check out the Dulux range. Do you get yours from Bunnings or other? I'll have to call around and get some prices to try keep costs down. Soon we'll need to repaint all the windows and window frames (about 7 windows + few extra frames with non-movable windows.)


Thanks again for the information. Much appreciated

[mic-d]

Youtube kept offering up more restoration vids using steam, How To Remove Window Putty with Steam - YouTube

not really applicable to you since you won't have a steam box but interesting anyway