Table top marks easliy! please help

Hello,

I just finished a table top which I think is made out of pine (i'm a total hack). I bought the table in poor condition and have just finished restoring it, I stripped and sanded back the original finish. Stained it then applied two coats of matt estapol then rubbed in danish oil with steel wool.

I just put the table into service and it marks VERY easily.. The finishs looks great and im very happy with it but it is not going to last long.. you can mark it with your finger nail, and a beer bottle will leave little daisy marks behind. Please tell me how I can toughen this table on top of the finish I have already applied? Would minwax wipe on polly help at all? Can I just apply extra coats of polly over the top now that I have used danish oil on it? I tought that by using estapol on the table that would toughen it, why has the 2 coats of matt estapol failed to toughen the surface?

Thanks for any advice
Cheers
-Ben

How long since you finished applying the last coat?

5 days..

I personally think your at the point of no return, going on will not give you a finish with intergity.

I think your better off if you strip it off and re-do it from the raw wood up, this time select one of Ubeaut coatings, where you can get advise you can count on. You see what happens when you don't.

Sorry, for the bad news, in most cases if you continue, you not only willwaste your material, but you will most likely waste your time.

Wait for Ubeaut answer he might have a solution for you.


MacS

In the meantime you could read this thread, not quite the same situation as yours but might give you some pointers.Here

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Originally Posted by MacS

this time select one of Ubeaut coatings, where you can get advise you can count on. You see what happens when you don't.


MacS

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You gotta be kidding me!

I realise that this forum is hosted by a "sponsor" but thats rediculous. After reading a lot of posts on this board I realise that the advice is seriously compromised by people constantly pushing the sponsors product. This is supposed to be a disscussion board where people can freely discuss topics and get advice not be constantly advertised to.



How dare I use a product other that U-beaut! :roll:

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Originally Posted by potex

You gotta be kidding me!

I realise that this forum is hosted by a "sponsor" but thats rediculous. After reading a lot of posts on this board I realise that the advice is seriously compromised by people constantly pushing the sponsors product. This is supposed to be a disscussion board where people can freely discuss topics and get advice not be constantly advertised to.
How dare I use a product other that U-beaut! :roll:

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Potex,

you will find most of the pushing of the sponsors products is not actually done by the sponsor, it is done by the sponsors customers. I am one of their happy customers and have often suggested the use of their product (at no prompting from Ubeaut, would be happy to get some freebie's though:U).

As far as I am concerned, You cant get a better recommendation than from a happy customer. As far as I can see people can freely discuss any product here (within reason of cause, see the thread about forums being sued), in the time I have been here I haven't seen or heard of a thread being closed because it discussed a product that rivals the sponsor.

Maybe you need to take a deep breath and think about what was posted, you have been pointed to another thread in the same vein as yours and by the looks of it Neil will be coming up with one of his trademark answers shortly (He did write a book on finishing)

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After reading a lot of posts on this board I realise that the advice is seriously compromised by people constantly pushing the sponsors product.

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MacS's post may have been a bit over the top but I think that 'seriously compromised' is a bit inflammatory. Yes there are a lot of people here who use Ubeaut stuff and recommend it, but great range that it is, it only covers a relatively small spectrum of the array of finishes available to woodworkers and if you really have read 'a lot of posts' you will find that oils, lacquers and other non-shellac-based finishes are also popular.

If people happen to recommend using Ubeaut's stuff, it's because they have tried it and found it works. No-one here is under any compulsion to 'push' it. I think you might attract a very hostile reaction if you make remarks like that and you will find that assistance with your problem will not be forthcoming if you go down the path you are travelling.

I just hopped over and had a look at the Wattyl tech info sheet for Estapol Matt - says that it takes up to 10 days in winter to fully cure.

Agree.

If you read my posts (heh heh) you'll find I'm a horses for courses man and as a turner mostly use a finish which is not made by Ubeaut.

Since it is DO, may I suggest that you may have made an error? The two brands I've used suggest in their instructions that it goes on first. With a bit of elbow grease you won't need poly. In fact, poly underneath kinds defeats the purpose of DO. Just DO and wax on top. I like Ubeaut Trad Wax but can also recommend Gilly Stephenson's cabinet makers wax (as in fact the forum owner recently did as an alt. to Trad Wax.).

Pine can of course behave in odd ways. As suggested, you've got a potent brew over the top and it may come good if you let it sit a bit longer to harden.

Another factor is that your DO may have gone off in the can and so take a lot longer to harden than the instructions indicate. Suggest you wipe it down with White Spirit and 0000 steel wool and see what that does.

Thankyou to those who have replied with some help. I really appreciate it. Didn't mean to offend anyone I was just reacting to the "see what happens when you don't use U-beaut" comment.

Cheers
-Ben

Then you should direct your umbrage to MacS :)

I think I'd be inclined to just leave it a couple of weeks and see if it improves before doing anything rash, unless one of the more experienced guys has a better idea...

Pine being fairly soft, I'm not too sure how hard it's ever going to be though. My parents have got a very soft pine dining table which I stripped back, sanded and re-coated about 20 years ago (#### was it that long ago?) and it still marks pretty easily.

Yeah fair point.

Thanks for your help SilentC

I understand that you put a poly under danish oil.
this is like putting a sheet of plastic underneath and wiping oil on top. it wont bond.
despite your justified anger at somone seemingly promoting a product I think they areright in this case.
strip it back completely with a comercial stripper, give it a light sand ( pine should not be sanded in my opimion beyond a 320 grit becaues its too soft.
put a single coat of shellac on it, let dry for 3 hours then lightly sand again.
now you can use your danish oil.
the nice thing about this product is that you can put on 2-3-4 coats and it is tolerant of mistakes.
but you have to let it dry at least 24 hour between coats.
sand with a worn out piece of 240 grit between coats and for the final coat rub back with a no 0000 steel wool.(if you dont want a super high shine)
then lightly wax
there is a reason that proffessionals dont use polys
thats because they look like pastic and you can' ajust your finish

cheers
astrid

G,day potex

Definitely restrip it follow the instructions that astrid has given but I will give you another method after the shellac depending on how much use the table will receive you could use a gemini wax but this is a sacrificial layer but can be easily recoated. hope this helps.

You post a message about your problem on this forum, whereas, you used materials you bought from another company, and you want your problem solved here.

Why, didn't you go back to the company that sold you the materials. Do you think it fair to use this forum for your problem that was caused by another customers material.

As a former field salesman selling finishing materials for over 30 years, I never could figure out why customers who bought some of their materials from my competitors would ask me questions about problems they were having with my competitors materials.

That's just what your doing here, you want someone on this forum to solve your problem caused by products that you bought from someone else. It's not the right thing to do.

My mention of Ubeaut, was a compliment to their materials, to you it was only a sugesstion.

Your the one who is out of bounds for turning this around with your post.

Astrid,

I think your selling Polyurethane short.

Its one of the coatings that should be used on any furniture that is heavly used.

To mention using shellac with a wax and try compare it with the features of Polyurethane like its durability and chemical resistence, there is no comparision. Look's are not always the answer.

Polyurethane, can also be sanded and rubbed out to take away the plastic look, if someone desires it.

Polyurethane is a manmade (synthetic) varnish, both poly and varnish have a place in finishing, in shops that do all finishing by hand, these two should be used whenever you want durability and chemical resistence on the furniture.

Don't think DO over Estapol is a good idea at all :((

DO under Estapol would work with a suitably long (few weeks), time between

And if looking for matt or satin finish with Estapol, you should only do the last coat in it, ie, do all previous coats in gloss then final coat in matt or satin, this stops the finish from getting cloudy.

If finishing in gloss, leave the Estapol to cure for several weeks before polishing it with Ubueat EEE or Mequires Swirl Remover, then waxing. The irony is that although Estapol is touch dry in just a few hours, it takes several weeks to fully cure.

Personally potex, ubeaut really couldn't care less what or who's products you use.

They probably won't work unless you read the instructions and follow them to the letter anyway.

Big problem with most people is they go out and buy a product scan the label and instantly become experts, thinking they know better than the manufacturer. I doubt that anywhere on the label it would say apply 2 coats and then whilst it's still green rub in danish oil with steel wool.

I could be wrong and if I am I humbly apologise, but I'd like to see those instructions first.

Other problem is, there's polyurethane then there's Polyurethane. Like most popular products there's the really good stuff and there's the pretty ordinary stuff. Chances are you didn't buy the really good stuff.

Also possible the stain wasn't left to cure long enough or was possibly incompatible and won't allow the poly to harden for a really long time if at all.

Then there's the Danish Oil. In Australia there are a number of DO's most are rubbish one is good and one works. None that I know of are designed for use the way you used it. Matter of fact the DO is most likely what is keeping your surface soft. Because it's probably so full of turpentine and linseed oil that it won't allow the finish beneath to properly cure.

Danish oil (the good stuff) is designed to be used on raw timber so it can soak into the pores of the wood where it polymerizes and becomes one with the wood. Mostly it is based on watered down polyurethane and for some manufacturers is a way great way to get more money from an unsuspecting public by selling a watered down version of their regular product at the same price and sometimes for even more.

Personally I think you have 2 options:

1. Leave it to cure for a few weeks and hopefully it will harden but I seriously doubt it, or
2. Strip it off and start from scratch. preferably with good product, a full set of instruction and a willingness to follow them.

But whatever you do do not under any circumstances use any product with the U-Beaut label on it.

Neil Ellis :biggrin2:

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Originally Posted by MacS

You post a message about your problem on this forum, whereas, you used materials you bought from another company, and you want your problem solved here.

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Of course - this is THE "Woodwork Forums" - where else would you go for (online) help?

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Originally Posted by MacS

Why, didn't you go back to the company that sold you the materials. Do you think it fair to use this forum for your problem that was caused by another customers material.

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You could also approach the manufacturer, or you can use these forums.... These forums don't sell product. Ubeaut makes and sells finishes, and it is his generosity that these forums are provided for free, but they are not here to push one product brand.

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Originally Posted by MacS

As a former field salesman selling finishing materials for over 30 years, I never could figure out why customers who bought some of their materials from my competitors would ask me questions about problems they were having with my competitors materials.

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Good thing we are not salesmen then - we are woodworkers helping woodworkers.

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Originally Posted by MacS

That's just what your doing here, you want someone on this forum to solve your problem caused by products that you bought from someone else. It's not the right thing to do.

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Of course it is - might as well shut these forums down forever then if they are only here for sales. They are here for all sorts of reasons, including seeking help with any woodworking related problem (and not always even woodworking!)

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Originally Posted by MacS

My mention of Ubeaut, was a compliment to their materials, to you it was only a sugesstion.

Your the one who is out of bounds for turning this around with your post.

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No - he's not.

Agree with Stuart.

On the subject of Estapol and DO, Wattyl actually say in their product literature that the gloss of Estapol Matt can be altered by rubbing with Natural Teak Oil.

Must admit I have done this for years, not with Natural Teak Oil, but with DO, using 0000 steel wool.
Gives a lovely satin finish that is resisant to most household stuff thrown at it.

In our product data sheet (which I wrote), the company I worked for recommended the same thing.

Why, would someone go to forum to look for help when he bought the materials from another company.

I think that I would go to the company that I bought the materials first to look for an answer.

If I could not get answer from that company to solve my problem, I would not buy from that company again.

Maybe, that's the reason he came here, looking for someone to solve his problem was because he knew he screwed up, and was already told to re-do it.

Maybe, he did not like my sugesstion about stripping and starting all over.That is the only solution in many cases.

And, regardless, of my mention about Ubeat, what's the big deal about me doing that, I'm free to also praise (NEIL) Neal any time I want too, there is no rule that states I cannot.

Buy from Ubeat....

MacS

If you want a hard, durable finish, you need to start with a hard timber.

Pine dents easily; so no matter what sort of finish you put on it, it may not give you the effect you are after simply because one hard bump from a coffee cup or a heavy, hot container can leave an impression in the timber itself. This will crack a brittle poly finish and will allow moisture in to swell and discolour the timber.

Polyurethane isn't a be-all and end-all finish, for all its wonder properties; I find that on timbers with coarse grain and gum veining such as jarrah, the poly can fail to take properly on the gum veining and over a few years it flakes off, providing an entry point for moisture, and a need to refinish the surface.

Personally, with pinus crapiata I'd sand it back, bung on three or four or five or six coats of cheap n' cheerful spray on clear gloss (the type sold by Supa-Cheap Auto for car use at about $2.50 a spray can) and kick the job out the door. It's simply not worth any more effort than that. (I'm typing this on a table that I did just that to about 15 years ago and the finish has held up pretty well).

But Neil's products (the ones I've used, anyway) seem to work quite well. (oh, by the way Neil, you are behind in this months sockpuppet account payments - could you send those cheques out pronto if you want all of us to keep recommending the stuff, ta! Oh, if you are not Neil, please don't read that bit, ok!)

Hi, I think the easiest way is to remove the danish oil with white spirit (not turpentine) and go over your estapol with a clear 2pac polyeurathane. Visit your local retailer and they will know what it is. It will come in a 2 tins, one is the polish and the other is a hardner, mix together. it is a clear finish. Just don't do it under 13 degrees C. It dries quickly. Be sure to lightly rub the estapol finish with a sponge sanding block to take the shine off before you recoat. Also lightly sand with the sponge between coats! - Good luck!

Every coating has pros and cons, weakness and strenghts, selecting the right coating depends on the usage of each piece.

Polyurethane, needs no sealer, thin the first two coats 50 % of Mineral or White Spirits.

If Shellac is used to prevent fisheyes, it must be dewaxed Shellac, if not there will be poor adhesion, and it must be sanded back, as Shellac is the softer coating.

It is suggested, to stay with the poly all the way.

Personally, I agree with Astrid. :shrug:

I find that a good Danish or Tung Oil can strengthen timbers more than most "surface coating" finishes I've tried. For example, I do a saturation coat on Huon Pine and leave it to cure for several days before any further sands/coats. This strengthens the surface timber enough to prevent the casual "fingernail ding" that Huon's so prone to.

Then again, Master Splinter has a point too - if 'tis radiata, then unless it's the nicer, old growth pine (ie. not the C-grade muck sold anywhere'n'everywhere) or has great sentimental reason, IMHO pine's just not worth the effort and expense...

Good Danish Oil is expensive and 100% Tung Oil is even more so. [sigh]

Now I'm puzzling over which DO's Neil meant when he said "one is good and one works"?? I only use Rustin's - I'm sure that's one of the two. (IMHO, it's the "good one." :D) I seriously doubt whether t'other is one that can be bought from a mega-mart type chain like Bunnies or M10. :no:

Maybe the new Organoil Danish? But although I've seen Ern use it, I'm a still a bit suss of it... with that citrus pong there's more than just Tung Oil and some sort of dryer in it! Actually, being promoted as "organic" can it have any metallic dryers in it? Anyone?

[QUOTE=GAJD04;596636]Hi, I think the easiest way is to remove the danish oil with white spirit (not turpentine)

GAJD04,

White Spirits or Turpentine will not remove Danish Oil, because, DO is a reactive coating and reactive coatings will not dissolve.

Skew,

Its very easy to tell if its true Tung Oil, it must say, 100% Pure Tung Oil, this means it is unadulterated, nothing is added. They can use the term Tung Oil, but they cannot add 100% Tung Oil.

MacS

:D:D Even easier - just wipe on some contact cement and apply a sheet of woodgrain laminex - looks just like something with a coat of polyurethane!! - and its a tougher finish, too!! :D:D