How to stop a bleeding finish

[Dengue]

Hi all, I use a lot of oak timber and red cedar which have quite large open pores. If I apply Danish Oil, or any other oil, I get terrible bleeding out of the pores which has to be wiped off every half hour initially, then hourly, for up to 8 hours. The hotter it is, the worse the bleeding.

Q1. Can I stop this bleeding by applying a weak coat or two of thinned dewaxed shellac first ( say 1:5 Ubeaut Hard Shellac: denatured alcohol) and then sanding it back so only the pores are filled? And then applying the oil finish

Q2. Or should I skip the shellac and wet sand the first coat to fill the pores with oil and fine sawdust, and thereby changing the timber appearance as the grain lines are filled in?

Q3. Or is there a better way of doing an oil finish?

[ubeaut]

Bleeding is a problem with most oils. Air in the timber trying to escape via the pores and pushed the oil out and sometimes the swelling of the timber as the oil soaks in will expel the oil.
I'd skip Q1 as the oil needs to bond with the timber and cross link or polymerise in the pores of the wood. Putting anything like sanding sealer on won't allow the oil to do its job correctly.

If you have a ROS I'd go for Q2 Put a no hole disc on it and sand the oil in at around 800 grit until it begins to thicken and go muddy.then wipe off any excess across the grain. Still going to bleed but shouldn't be anywhere near as bad.

Alternatively.... Wait for a response to Q3 from someone who uses a lot of oil.

Personally if it is too much of a problem I'd give the Danish Oil a big miss and look at an alternative finish, maybe wipe on poly or something similar. I see you're in Townsville so it's possible that the heat and humidity up there will have something like this bleeding out for a very long time, like weeks, if not months.

Hope this is a little help.

Related story slightly related story (very slightly related)
I knew a man who purchased some Qld Rosewood up around Townsville on his honeymoon (much to the disgust of his wife.
He made her a beautiful waterfall bookcase for their 1st Anniversary and finished it with that new fangled poly stuff. Looked absolutely magnificent.

On or around their 50th anniversary the poly started to go soft then slowly run and bleed to the point that the books and ornaments etc that adorned the shelves had to be removed as they were beginning to stick to the gooey mess.

He had to strip the entire thing and for months later it bled oil from the rosewood. Not sure if he ever finished it again lost touch with him some 30 years ago.

True story.... Sorry about the digression.

Hope you find the answer to your bloody bleeding problem.

[Dengue]

No doubt about you, Neil !! Many thanks for this valuable information. You should start up a forum to share all your knowledge and experiences, and scary stories of course

[rustynail]

I agree with the above. Particularly the suggestion to wet sand the initial coats.
With some timbers and red cedar is one, the pore structure requires wet sanding after each of several coats. It is also important to use a minimal amount of oil and work each coat well into the timber. In the case of gun stocks we use a hand rubbed application to help force oil in and air out of the open grain. These stocks receive up to 30 coats of oil, depending on the level of gloss required. No attempt should be made to build a finish until the grain is filled by sanding the wet oil and resulting dust into the pores of the timber during the early coats. Allow the timber to dry well between coats.

[Dengue]

Thanks rusty, good and very helpful information, and very much appreciated too. And interesting. 30 coats !!!!

My finish is for a red cedar urn, so I guess the recipient won't be in too much of a hurry to get it. He's not going anywhere (black humour allowed here?)

What process would you recommend for a satin finish? I have sanded all the sides to 240 grit so far

[Mobyturns]

Joe, I have used a similar technique to that described by Neil (ROS & sanding slurry) on many woodturnings and some flat work. I use Organoil's "Hi Speed Finishing Oil" & "Hard Burnishing Oil" with their "Wet on Wet Sanding Proceedure." http://www.organoil.com.au/woodcraft/printable.html

The technique works very well on woodturnings and maintain the wet slurry and easily fills pores in open grained timbers like Kwilia, NG Rosewood, Red Cedar etc. There is very little bleed out IF

you follow the instructions. It is also easy to correct stuff-ups following their "over oiling rectification" procedure.

Caution - The wet on wet sanding technique is not suitable for work with multiple woods of contrasting colours however, as the slurry will carry over from dark to light destroying the appearance of inlays etc - that can't be fixed with the "over oiling rectification" procedure.

Kunos seems to work well on those projects but carries the caution about applying to thin veneers as you are well aware of. Neil Scobie used Kunos.

I have also used Minwax Wipeon Polyurethane (Gloss & Satin) with a lot of success on small wood turnings and flatwork but it is nigh on impossible to source in Oz now. I haven't tried the Zinsser WOP but many US wood turners reckon its good - https://www.rustoleum.com.au/product...-wipe-on-poly/ (only in Gloss that I can see, TDS shows a Satin though) WOP can create problems too - if you have one timber such as the red NG Rosewood or any oily woods that is likely to be "carried" by the high solvent volumes in WOP. It will bleed over into lighter woods.

Kelly Dunn a full time professional Hawaiian wood turner uses a dip / soak home brew "Danish Oil" for almost all of his work but has to work on the bleed out sometimes for weeks after the initial "finishing." Not much else you can do until the oil polymerizes (hardens). Kelly uses a lot of his brew and makes it up in garbage can volumes to soak his bowls. I have Kelly's brew recipie if you want to make your own "Danish Oil". You can easily make your own WOP too.

[Dengue]

Many thanks for all this valuable info and advice, Mobyturns. Life is hard enough without having to make your own poly, so I might give the recipe a miss, thanks all the same

With all the comments above, there are just so many options. Oil tends to be least favouite with this wood becaue of the bleeding, possibly long term bleeding.

SO, I have decided to have another go at shellac. Tried it years ago, never satisfied with my efforts , and gave it away! Used Kunos Oil and Danish Oil instead, never poly. Still have Neil's "A Polisher's Handbook", so will dig it out and study it again.

This time I am going to try and do as much finish before final cutting and assembly of the urn, should be a lot easier. Even found some pure cotton wadding cheap at Spotlight

Wish me luck !!

[rustynail]

Depending on how open grained the cedar is will dictate the number of coats required for a suitable finish. I would imagine half a dozen would be sufficient. For cedar I would sand to 320 and and use 320 for wet sanding the initial coats. A light sand with 480 between coats during the build will give a scratch free surface, even worn 320 is ok. A good wearing oil finish can be achieved with Birchwood Casey True Oil. Don't ask me what is in the stuff as nobody knows, its a highly guarded secret though there have been many suggestions on the recipe. Suffice to say it is an oil with drying additives and capable of a quick build. The big advantage is it can be recoated at any time without cut back.

[Dengue]

No attempt should be made to build a finish until the grain is filled by sanding the wet oil and resulting dust into the pores of the timber during the early coats. Allow the timber to dry well between coats.

thanks for your help, rusty.

One question, after the 1st coat is dry sanded with 320 grit and then wet sanded with 320 grit paper and allowed to dry, and in my case with the red cedar, the pores are not all filled first go. How do you fill the pores with the 2nd coat if there is no bare timber to make a slurry, as the timber is coated with the first coat of oil?

Another question, after all the pores are filled, how do you go about building a finish with Danish Oil, brush additional coats on, sanding lightly between them; or wiping oil on, leaving for a few minutes then wiping the excess off and buffing with a clean rag then letting it dry before repeating?

And finally, what is the best way to do the initial wet sanding - rub the slurry created by the oil, timber and W&D paper into the pores with a soft or a rough cloth, and do you do it with the grain or across the grain?

[Robson Valley]

We use an oak pore sealing paste. When it sets up, it gets sanded back. Then finish easily with whatever you like.
Red oaks (Quercus rubra group) do not have the vessel elements occluded by tyloses like the white oak (Q. alba) group of species.
Finishing liquids can penetrate red oak several meters. No wonder it bleeds. That's why white oaks and never red oaks are used for
wine/sherry/whiskey cooperage.

[rustynail]

thanks for your help, rusty.

One question, after the 1st coat is dry sanded with 320 grit and then wet sanded with 320 grit paper and allowed to dry, and in my case with the red cedar, the pores are not all filled first go. How do you fill the pores with the 2nd coat if there is no bare timber to make a slurry, as the timber is coated with the first coat of oil?

Another question, after all the pores are filled, how do you go about building a finish with Danish Oil, brush additional coats on, sanding lightly between them; or wiping oil on, leaving for a few minutes then wiping the excess off and buffing with a clean rag then letting it dry before repeating?

And finally, what is the best way to do the initial wet sanding - rub the slurry created by the oil, timber and W&D paper into the pores with a soft or a rough cloth, and do you do it with the grain or across the grain?

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