Waterstone tests: a taster from Stu of toolsfromjapan.com

[rsser]

I added this link in another thread but on rereading think it's worth its own.

Click

Like a few other forum members I've benefited from Stu's advice and service and have come to regard him highly.

(No connection other than as a customer and sometime email correspondent).

[Schtoo]

Wow...

I deny all knowledge.

Actually, there's a US market Shapton, A Norton and a Suehiro to add into there. I desperately want to get a move on this, and should be able to hop in properly in the next few days, once I kick the fam damily out of the house for new years to the outlaws house.

So long as I get some time in there. A couple solid days would work, and I can get the testing done. Writing up will take some more time after that.

(And I still dislike Glass Stones. It's not like I have not tried to like them either, having owned and used 4 of the things... )

[Mr Brush]

Stu - too many distractions in your workshop.....

[rsser]

LOL.

No rush Stu. It's the holiday season. Or don't Buddhists observe the birth of JC? Pity, he was a chippy after all. Wonder what he used to sharpen his tools.

FWIW some time ago I got a couple of Glass Stones from the US, intended for the kitchen and its knives but somehow they got stuck in the shed.

I like the #1000 but not as much as your Bester #1000.

The #4000 drives me nuts with stiction and glazing but I'm trying to be Zen about it and learn how it wants to be used

[underused]

Hey Schtoo!

Where are You based in Japan mate?

I'm still using my old King stones, and have done loads of work with them... However, I'd like to know what other stones are worth having? I'm not looking on spending a fortune, just three decent stones. A lot of my irons are A2.
I'm not really in to glass stones (shaptons), I'm stuck in my ways I guess
I'd appreciate any advice mate! I'm in Japan (fukuoka)

[Schtoo]

Hi Underused,

I'm in Kagawa, so not too far away.

If you are using a lot of A2, and want to get that sharp at the expense of sharpening any other steel, then look hard at ceramic stones. I'd say avoid anything from Naniwa, Shapton is ok, Sigma, Bester and the King ceramic are very good on A2.

However, Bester's fine stone is more suited to white steel, and King don't actually make a fine grit ceramic stone, so if you want to keep it in the family, Sigma is about as good as it gets.

I say that after absolutely torturing some stones today. Folks would be white with shock (and will be soon enough) once they have heard what I have done to them today. It really sorted the wheat from the chaff in the most glaring way possible.

From what came from today, I base that above recommendation on. Throw in the Arashiyama #1000 because aside from one serious fault (it's dark grey, so hard to see what's happening) it's an awesome stone and out performed all but Sigma's premium stone, which was no surprise because the big, bad Sigma kills everything dead, but suffers from the same, dark colour. Coincidence?

The Shapton professional are not too bad, but I didn't get to them today in the torture test, so I can't say how they will hold up. I'm expecting the pro stones to do ok (but not great) and the Glass Stone to be permanently wounded, if not killed.

(Yes, the test really is that harsh.)

So, that's about it really.

I don't think it would be too difficult for you to find them online, and there's a fantastic shop in Nagasaki by the name of "Yamazen" if you can make the trip down there. Great guy, really knows his stuff and will put you straight if you can get there, and if not, he delivers promptly as well. Sells Bester, Shapton and Sigma.

(But being blunt, Sigma. I'm trying to give fair airtime to all the good stones out there, but the dang Sigma Power stuff just keeps on delivering the goods, all the time. Just have to convince them that folks will actually ask for a #5000 stone, and make them make one for me. Wish me luck! )

And no, I don't do local. Not worth the hassles it would present to me.


Oh, Ern? Your Bester should be proud of itself. It's brother over here acquitted itself admirably. Just a hint, when the blade is giving you trouble, break loose some grit on the stone with a diamond doohicky and don't let it get too wet. Just damp is the happy zone, and you'll be able to chew through anything...

[rsser]

Thanks for the info and for the Bester tip Stu.

As you said on your blog, it's a relatively thirsty stone so I've been soaking it til the bubbles stop and then some, and then just spritzing the top to get a get some mud happening.

[underused]

Cheers Schtoo,


Thanks for the Advice!..Sounds like Sigma then..
I've used the Shapton M's, they seemed to wear rather fast, but were hard to flatten.
That's what I liked about my King stones, they wear quickly, but also flatten easily.

Does the Sigma stones work well on other steels too? I use some Japanese chisels, as well as some from Sheffield, and a few old Stanley Bailey's

[ravna]

Hi Guys
Am looking to upgrade to some decent stones and have been following several threads and also Stu's excellent discourse on the merits of the various brands.
Came across this gem on the Chef Talk site....would not have thought that Gyprock sanding sheets would be abrasive enough....any thoughts
'The trend with high-end knife hobbyists seems to be flattening with a coarse diamond stone -- usually a DMT XXC. IMO, they're too small to do a good flattening. "Flattening stones" are also popular. When I used waterstones, I flattened on sandpaper, but understand drywall screen is a better choice. If and when I go back to waterstones, I'll flatten with screen.'

Cheers

John M

[underused]

drywall screen on float glass works well on waterstones, wet & dry paper too.
For the ceramic shaptons, the best way I found was wet and dry paper on float glass.

[Schtoo]

Hi Guys
Came across this gem on the Chef Talk site....would not have thought that Gyprock sanding sheets would be abrasive enough....any thoughts
'The trend with high-end knife hobbyists seems to be flattening with a coarse diamond stone -- usually a DMT XXC. IMO, they're too small to do a good flattening. "Flattening stones" are also popular. When I used waterstones, I flattened on sandpaper, but understand drywall screen is a better choice. If and when I go back to waterstones, I'll flatten with screen.'

Cheers

John M

I've seen that, but never been game enough to try it.

Problem is that you end up having adhesive in the mix with your coarse abrasive, and there is a real chance of putting that adhesive contaminant into your stone. Which, if it happens, is a sure fire way to require more flattening to get that out, because any glue seriously screws up the stone.

If you want to save money, get a piece of glass that's nice and flat (enough) and use some loose abrasive grit on it. No adhesive so that risk is eliminated, works with all stones (and this is what Shapton recommends as well) and is super fast.

I'm not saying that because I stand to make a coin from selling the stuff, but because I don't want to deal with holding someone's hand with trying to get the adhesive out of their stone. Fine stones are not a really serious issue, but coarser stones, the junk can work it's way down since it's flexible. Even little particles of the crap can cause trouble.

Yes, I've asked folks here. They all looked at me in horror when I described using sand paper or any derivative of it... Then the stone type folks explained why.

So, I won't even risk it. You can try it if you want, and it may very well be that you get away with it from now until your grave, but it's a risk.

Just use loose abrasive. Fine sandblasting grit is more than adequate and cheaper than any sandpaper.

(And you don't have to wait for the stone to get dry to use it. Especially when you consider many stones change when wet, so a stone flattened dry won't be when it's wet, so why bother flattening it?)

Hope that helps, and I use a diamond plate. Won't use anything else, except for them danged Sigma #120 things. Gotta resort to grit on them...

[Mr Brush]

Stu - is my #120 winging its way here yet, or are you still performing quality tests on it? In your kitchen?????

I start a 12 week course at Sturt School For Wood at end of January, and I've got LOTS of sharpening to do before then !!

Cheers

[Schtoo]

It all left 2 hours ago.

Danged country REALLY shut down for a week and change, and the #120 arrived yesterday.

Oh-fish-oil email will be on it's way soon.

Stu.

[Mr Brush]

Thanks Stu

Looking forward to making lots of "fingernail down a blackboard" noises when I come to flatten the #120 stone.......

I use diamond plates for flattening waterstones these days, so the large chunk of thick glass I used to keep for the purpose is now available for SiC flattening.

[ravna]

Thanks for the info Stu...you have opened my eyes.

I have a few bags of Ilmenite (the black abrasive blasting sand they obtain from Straddie) here, when I get my stones off you and they require flattening will try that and report back. I have both 12mm float glass and some large granite slabs, will try both.

Cheers

John M