industrial Chemist needed.

[Simplicity]

Industrial chemist too fact check Please!!
Or anybody else actually.

I’ve just been informed by my learned host(People I stay with while in Smelly Melbourne).
That the activator used in the settings process of CA Cyanoacrylate glue, used too finish small items like Pens extra is just Bi Carb of soda mixed with water.??

Is this true, we have been using the F an poo word to discuss the fact, hence we, well me, am seeking a higher opinion.

[Bushmiller]

Matt

I am not much of a chemist, not much of anything really, but this is from Wikipedia

Filler[edit]

When added to baking soda (sodium bicarbonate), cyanoacrylate glue forms a hard, lightweight adhesive filler. This works well with porous materials that do not work well with the adhesive alone. This method is sometimes used by aircraft modelers to assemble or repair polystyrene parts. It is also used to repair small nicks in the leading edge of wood propeller blades on light aircraft,^[11] although this technique is limited to use on aircraft registered in the "experimental" category (composite propellers can be repaired in a similar way using two-part epoxies^[12]). This technique can also be used to fill in the slots in the nut of a guitar so that new ones can be cut. The reaction between cyanoacrylate and baking soda is very exothermic (heat-producing) and also produces noxious vapors.

This is the full article on CA glues;

Cyanoacrylate - Wikipedia

It mentions that water, or rather moisture, is the catylist for hardening and bicarb is more for a filler product.

Regards
Paul

[Mobyturns]

Most material safety data sheets (MSDS) for the common aerosol CA Activators list Acetone as the solvent, LPG as the propellant and other "trade secret" ingredients 0.1-0.5%.

Pump packs like Starbond state - Organic Activator 0-4% & Organic Solvent 50-100% with the formulation CAS numbers (a unique number to a given compound) "trade secret."

Good luck finding out what the secret herbs and spices are.

[Simplicity]

Matt

I am not much of a chemist, not much of anything really, but this is from Wikipedia

Filler[edit]

When added to baking soda (sodium bicarbonate), cyanoacrylate glue forms a hard, lightweight adhesive filler. This works well with porous materials that do not work well with the adhesive alone. This method is sometimes used by aircraft modelers to assemble or repair polystyrene parts. It is also used to repair small nicks in the leading edge of wood propeller blades on light aircraft,^[11] although this technique is limited to use on aircraft registered in the "experimental" category (composite propellers can be repaired in a similar way using two-part epoxies^[12]). This technique can also be used to fill in the slots in the nut of a guitar so that new ones can be cut. The reaction between cyanoacrylate and baking soda is very exothermic (heat-producing) and also produces noxious vapors.

This is the full article on CA glues;

Cyanoacrylate - Wikipedia

It mentions that water, or rather moisture, is the catylist for hardening and bicarb is more for a filler product.

Regards
Paul

THANK YOU Paul, I may be eating out of the dog bowl while in Melbourne .

Ok I have some light reading this evening too do.

Cheers Matt.

[Pete57]

I have used bicarb & superglue to create a fillet to strengthen a joint. Works well.

Here is a test using just water:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikEXNtvjQw8&feature=youtu.be

[woodPixel]

An amine of N,N-Dimethyl-p-toluidine carried in acetone, heptane or ethanol alcohol. The last three are just solvents and quickly evaporate off, as we know

This nasty sounding sauce is used by dentists to harden the plastics after moulding.

Nothing from the kitchen sink, unfortunately.


Edit - I have the sneaking suspicion this may also be used by the beauty industry for acrylic fingernails and repairs. How curious. Something to look up....

[plt43]

I note that David from Timberbits recommended Glen20 at one point....

I have used this with some success - I wonder what their secret ingredient is ?

[Mobyturns]

I note that David from Timberbits recommended Glen20 at one point....

I have used this with some success - I wonder what their secret ingredient is ?

It did not work at all for me! I've found the most suitable CA accelerator to be NCF, expensive but very good.

NCF has tolerable fumes, not that I expose myself to them. I find accelerators from BSI etc have a cheap & nasty perfume to mask the CA and accelerator fumes. Horrible stuff!!!

Soudal's "mitre kit" pack has a good accelerator product but an awful applicator nozzle - its splutters and spits, making it a hit and miss process if applying CA as a pen finish. Fortuately, the cans accept an NCF cans nozzle - problem solved!

[crowie]

G'Day Matt, I've been using a range of Starbond CA Glue along with their accelerator; works a treat.

I've noticed from time to time on news letters from them people ask question and or advice about what and how to use which one of their glues.

Maybe be worth asking them, Cheers Peter

Cyanoacrylate Glue | CA Glue | Cyanoacrylate Adhesive | Starbond Premium Super Glue

[woodPixel]

NCF Quick is N,N,4-trimethyl-Benzenamine

Its the same stuff as all the others* (i.e. no additional magic sauces)


On a side note, out of curiosity, I found some N,N-Dimethyl-p-toluidine for sale in small quantities in Japan. It normally sold in bulk (at CONSIDERABLE discount 500ml is $266)... but who needs 2.5 litres of it? Really!

The sprays are 2% sauce, mixed with the carrier/solvent. These amines wont mix with water (miscibility) but do in ethanol or acetone. 100% Ethanol is buy-able in bulk very cheaply from SydneySolvents.com.au (20L is $80)

Lets pretend we are going to do a bulk group buy .... numbers come in at a 2% solution (not including a fftt-fftt spray canister, postage)... $9.72 a litre.

So those 170ml cans of NCF quick @ ~$38 contain about $1.65 of fluid (and that's at retail buying of the ingredients!). So, the "expense" of the product is all down to the perceived value of the brand and little to do with the costs of manufacturing it.

If David from Timberbits were keen, this is entirely a doable project! A rent-a-chemist could do all the work (mix, bottle, certify) for him.


This is what our mystery substance looks like!

chemical-structure-cas-99-97-8.jpg-650.jpg

* also goes by the names of n,n-dimethyl-p-toluidine, dimethyl-p-toluidine, benzenamine, n,n,4-trimethyl, n,n-dimethyl-4-methylaniline, n,n-dimethyl-para-toluidine, 4,n,n-trimethylaniline, dimethyl-4-toluidine, p-dimethylamino toluene, n,n-dimethyl-p-tolylamine, n,n,4-trimethylbenzenamine

[woodPixel]

G'Day Matt, I've been using a range of Starbond CA Glue along with their accelerator; works a treat.

I'm going to sound really boring here!

Starbond Accelerator, being a MSDS "trade Secret" and a "proprietary chemistry" is simply the declared CAS 99-97-8

Same stuff. No change.

cas.png


cas2.png


The niceness comes down do perfumes and scents Our hire-a-chemist can add a little aromatics into it to sweeten it up.... although we DON'T want it to smell like Another Womans perfume

[woodPixel]

200ml of Hafele Aktivator is very good. I used it on all my pens (which I should continue to make!).

Curiosity gripped me, so I checked the MSDS and their preparation is 0.3 to 1% N,N-dimethyl-p-toluidine

I can buy these for $8.20 on account.

It did NOT bloom, or cause the White Spots Of Misery. Pretty sure I posted many years ago with the number of pens per can (I marked the cans with # of puffs per pen)... i should look that up, but it was large, something akin to 50 or 75 pens.

I rate this product highly (but then again, its the SAME as everyone else's, chemically!)

[Simplicity]

NCF Quick is N,N,4-trimethyl-Benzenamine

Its the same stuff as all the others* (i.e. no magic)


On a side note, out of curiosity, I found some N,N-Dimethyl-p-toluidine for sale in small quantities in Japan. It normally sold in bulk (at CONSIDERABLE discount 500ml is $266)... but who needs 2.5 litres of it? Really!

The sprays are 2% sauce, mixed with the carrier/solvent. These amines wont mix with water (miscibility) but do in ethanol or acetone. 100% Ethanol is buy-able in bulk very cheaply from SydneySolvents.com.au (20L is $80)

Lets pretend we are going to do a bulk group buy .... numbers come in at a 2% solution (not including a fftt-fftt spray canister, postage)... $9.72 a litre.

So those 170ml cans of NCF quick @ ~$38 contain about $1.65 of fluid (and that's at retail buying of the ingredients!). So, the "expense" of the product is all down to the perceived value of the brand and little to do with the costs of manufacturing it.

If David from Timberbits were keen, this is entirely a doable project! A rent-a-chemist could do all the work (mix, bottle, certify) for him.


This is what our mystery substance looks like!

chemical-structure-cas-99-97-8.jpg-650.jpg

* also goes by the names of n,n-dimethyl-p-toluidine, dimethyl-p-toluidine, benzenamine, n,n,4-trimethyl, n,n-dimethyl-4-methylaniline, n,n-dimethyl-para-toluidine, 4,n,n-trimethylaniline, dimethyl-4-toluidine, p-dimethylamino toluene, n,n-dimethyl-p-tolylamine, n,n,4-trimethylbenzenamine

Um errrrr ye right ok, I’m starting too see why I’m not an industrial chemist, but I do really appreciate the input an effort.
Anyone need something hit with a hammer give me a call.

Cheers Matt.

[havabeer69]

the guy is a little dry but seems to know his stuff (from a chemistry point of view) and also explains other glues and compounds

[woodPixel]

Um errrrr ye right ok, I’m starting too see why I’m not an industrial chemist, but I do really appreciate the input an effort.
Anyone need something hit with a hammer give me a call.

Dont get bamboozled.

The magic ingredient is an "amine". An amine is a compound of Nitrogen.

It long name isn't terribly relevant, just that the ingredient is available as a pure, cheap and easily managed way. Its a clear or white liquid that is stable at room temperatures. One wouldn't want to drink it. It isnt particularly cancerous or dangerous, but this can be said of anything we work with - greater exposures is greater risks.

We can make this stuff easily. No special precautions are needed, other than a fume cupboard (purely for safety) and protective gear (again, purely for safety).

2% of magic sauce. 98% in highly evaporative juices.

Put it into an ordinary spray bottle like one would use for perfume. Absolutely no need for pressurised cans.

I'm finding it a bit hard to rationalise why its so expensive to buy as a product. The only real thing I can think of is its a very slow seller (no real demand).