black oriental finish

[la Huerta]

hey all...


just picking up on the oriental furniture thread started elsewhere...has anyone here done any furniture in a black finish?

i know the chinese use laquer, but what about for the average woody, Black Japan is no good, it does not give the depth required, and tends to look a little like paint after to many coats, the chinese laquer has amazing depth, would a black piano finish be the same, i have never seen the two side by side...i'm assuming just tinting varnish would work but would it achive that depth like with the laquer..

any suggestions or info appriecated...

[al2]

Yes, I've been down the "black Japan" road -doesnt give a deep uniform black. Been using Mirotone's black metal etch, have to finish it off with some lacquer to give it a hard shell finish. Gives a good pure even black finish, yet the grain come thru. especially on crown cut European & Victorian Ash. I think this is the same stuff the commercial guys use on black speaker boxes (not the vinyl coted ones).

[RufflyRustic]

I used Watson's ProofTint Black for the edges on some Kwila and then finished them with shellac and a good polish. The edges did need a number of coats, but they came up a treat.

cheers
Wendy

[soundman]

GMH flat black or radaitor black which is the same but glossy, works a treat.

Make sure you get the proper stuff ( still cheap) that is nitro laquer.
when you thin it, it behaves more like ink than paint.
dries realy fast.
you can overcoat with cleer nitro or rub it out with the various waxes.

I stay with the GMH & I find the wattly is better than the septone & cheaper brands.

I will often undercoat with wattyl super etch black.... which is a epoxy primer that will hold out just about anything and stick to justabout anything.

These days a piano finish is two pack.

GMH flat is wonderfull and you can manipulate it to behave in a variety of ways.... realy realy thin & pretend its a stain....controll the thinner & controll the gloss level..... use it neat & its like a mat paint.

But fast..... hell its fast....... in summer in QLD... with a bit of thinner...on a warm surface .. it will go of in 15 to 20 sec..... I kid you not.

cheers

[soundman]

If you want something a lot less whiffy
Try resene lustacrill or enamacril... water based enamel substitute. in black.
if you treat this stuff well it comes up a bit like laquer when sprayed.

Don't get me started about black paint...... I keep stock of about 8 types of black paint.

In the entertainment industry the difference between a good job and a half done job is usulay a coat of black paint.

cheers

[durwood]

GMH flat black is actually scrap paint. Its called GMH flat black because GMH uses it to paint the underneath, interior and inside the engine bay of their cars. The paint is supplied to them by the paint companies at a cheap cost as the quality is not needed as is the case for the paint on the car.

The paint companies make it by boxing together the scrap paint they get when making paint. These are all placed into a vat and black pigment is added to swing it to a suitable black. its used in the auto trade as a cheap black to paint suitable parts and as a guide coat on the primers to show faults in the surface when its rubbed. The GMH black is thinned with lacquer thinner and then dusted on the surface to cover the primer.

Piano's were sprayed in black nitro cellulose lacquer and then polished to a brilliant gloss finish by using a method similar to french polishing. If you buy proper gloss nitro cellulose lacquer you can still do this. Don't put clear over it it won't make it any glossier in fact it makes it worse.you also reduce the durability of the paint by heaps as clear nitro cellulose lacquer is terrible as a surface if it is exposed to sunlight. This is why cars were never painted in metallic colours until N/C lacquer was superseded by acrylic lacquers.

As Sandman says 2 pack is used on most grand piano's now you will get the best finish by using them but you need special gear and experience to use them. They are by far the quickest and most durable finishes especially if you want faultless gloss black fishes.

The finish called lacquer used by the chinese has not been available here for 20 years as far as I know. If someone knows of a supplier I would be interested.

[black1]

I used Watson's ProofTint Black for the edges on some Kwila and then finished them with shellac and a good polish. The edges did need a number of coats, but they came up a treat.

cheers
Wendy

the black proof tint is the same as raven oil used in leatherworking. i used it on pine under black japan and got a consistant black. didnt like useing the shellac over the top before varnising though

[soundman]

Durwood what you say may have been true at some time in the distant past.
BUT
nobody had sprayed cars with nitro for a long time so where does the scrap paint come from.

In these days of quality assurance and material safety and data sheets I doubt if the scrap paint concept would pass muster.
Apart from the fact that most of the people who manufacture GMH flat manufacture no other nitro based products except perhaps radiator black.

I don't dispute that GMH flat is a cheap product, however it is usefull and if you stay away from the cheapest stuff its fine and beaut... particularly for interior use.

I have a friend who is a piano restorer & he assures me it is a very long time since anybody did black pianos in nitro in quantity.
Getting a full on deep gloss finish out of nitro particularly on timber is a lot of hard work.

As far as buying "proper" black nitro... yep you could buy it from mirotone or similar but it is very different to the old style automotive nitro of the past.
The current clear nitro preparations primarily intended for timber are just fine & beaut and if treated properly are excelent products.
Most of the mas manufactured "timber" furniture in this country is finished with some form of nitro.

If you go to mirotone they wont sell you nitro.... they call it "pre-catalised laquer" it is most certainly "nitro" but in a modern form.

I agree that GMH flatt is geberlay used as a cheap black stuff, but if you go for the half decent stuff and treat it with respect.... It will produce a good and durable finish, especialy if you rub it out with a bit of wax.

cheers

[durwood]

Soundman, By scrap paint I meant left over or paint not needed or messed up, the paint is the exact paint used for other products but its a mixture of whatever, it may be a batch of red, yellow, blue depending what was on the go in the factory, Mixed together it usually ends up a dirty brown/olive colour, its then tinted to black, the reason the material is flat is that primers were also put ito the mix and they have a lot of filler pigments in them.

I'm afraid you are wrong N/C lacquer resins are still used widely in the paint industry.

All primers for lacquers (even acrylic lacquer are N/C based thats why there is a different thinner for the primers to the acrylic lacquers.) N/C as you mentioned dries extremely fast rock hard after less than 24 hours, where as acrylic lacquers take up to 30 days to dry completely. Because N/C lacquer thinner is weak the primer doesn't attack the paint surface as easily, which stops a lot of problems in repair.

I have worked in paint testing labs and been present when GMH black was being produced, you can mix acrylic lacquer and even the modern 2 pack base colours with N/C and acrylic paints and they mix perfectly. When making a product there are many additives you can use to make the paint types.

DuPont make tinters which can be made into every type of paint normally available, N/C, Acrylic lacquer, 2 pack Bace coat, single layer 2 pack colour and metallic, polyurethane, vinyl paint and water based paint. You make the colour with the tinters and add the appropriate resin for your prefered paint. In the smash trade the colour is often mixed as a lacquer for interior colours as it dries fast and 2 pack for the exterior

Having used N/C lacquer for over 40 years its still basically the same. Even today many automotive painters use and prefer to use black N/C for show cars etc as it is the easiest paint to touch up if damaged. Most finishes produced for wood are inferior to these paints as the paint company does not consider they would be used by a tradesman for exterior use. Mirotone as you say is this type of lacquer it's not the type you would buy for use externally. I would never consider putting Mirotone on something that required good N/C. Pre -catalised lacquer is a modern lacquer but its not a patch on top quality N/C lacquer. its cheap and nasty in my opinion.

For those companies producing a GMH black, they just make a formula up of suitable materials and label it GMH black, They don't have to produce the same paint as GMH themselves would specify for their cars it just has to be a similar product for those who want such a colour.

[Schtoo]

It's called úrushi' here, and this is what I know from few bits of printed matter and speaking in busted Japanese to a guy who does this stuff for a living.

And he aint exactly a poor boy either.


The paint itself comes from trees, cures faster with high temperatures (duh!) and high humidity (huh?). Nitro laquer of reasonable quality would probably be sufficient, if not as workable and maybe less durable. The proper stuff is quite heat and moisture resistant, and non-toxic once cured. I sure hope it is, since I have eaten soup from the stuff.

The proper stuff is of course still available, here. Good luck finding it anywhere else, as I said, black tinted nitro laquer will probably suffice.

Seal the wood with whatever works, then sand it smooth. Dead smooth. Use a block of granite or steel to make sure it's flat, otherwise it's a waste of time.

Apply one coat thinly with the best brush you can find, they use mouse hair. A detail spray gun might also work. Let it cure, then polish flat. Not sand it flat, polish it. They use deer horn powder for this, but I suspect that any fine polish would also work ok.

Keep on doing this paint/polish trick for a few coats. Good things get 10 or more, simple things much less.

Using a fine waterstone to polish back large flat areas is completely kosher, and maybe micromesh wrapped around something hard and flat would be ok, but nothing that goes under the guise of sandpaper. Too coarse and vulgar for such a fine finish.

Once you are done, and if you put in the effort and have the patience, then you should end up with a very black finish that looks like a pool of ink and make the finish on a top end piano look like it came from a spray can with a busted nozzle applied by a 4 year old off his ritalin.

That only applies to the very upper echelon of things, and for that you pay huge $$$. Holding a small, simple box in your hand is one thing. To be told that the box cost about $50 and the paintjob cost nearly $2,000 is something else entirely.


I do think however that if you were after a decent finish that isn't trying to be the 'real deal', then good preparation and attention to detail will yield good results.

Hope that helps, but I don't think it will.

[thumbsucker]

Where do you buy Nitro lacquer in Melbourne, I am new to this finish, it may fit the bill for exactly what I am looking for, so I have stupid questions is it safe, can you brush it on or do you need a spray kit. Were can I find a good introduction to Nitro lacquer? What is a good brand?

[ubeaut]

Where do you buy Nitro lacquer in Melbourne,
Any decent Paint Shop.

I am new to this finish, it may fit the bill for exactly what I am looking for, so I have stupid questions is it safe, can you brush it on or do you need a spray kit.
Spray it but you don't need high end spray equipment, an old vacuum cleaner will do the job if you have nothing else.

Were can I find a good introduction to Nitro lacquer?
A Polishers Handbook.

What is a good brand?
Most of the big brand names are fine.

[soundman]

I've quite often heard this downward looking attitude from those in the automotive finishing industry......interesting.... i hear the same attitude from those in the timber finishing industry......... it cuts no ice either way with me.

Its more a fact that diferent products are formulated for different purposes and the manufacturing practises vary greatly from one manufacturer to another.

That why the U-Beaut products work so well.....some of the products might seem the same but only a little care can make a big difference.

If it does the job for me..... I'll use it..... if it doesn't work.... I wont be buying it next time.


cheers

[durwood]

Soundman, I wasn't trying to talk down to anyone, if a member asks a question he wants to have some idea as to what are his choises. For a lot of people using a good quality product will mean the difference between a succesful result and a bad one. When you are painting as a job it is important that each job is done properly and fast the last thing you need is problems. Cheap products usually mean the best ingredients are skimpt on so it can be more hassle to apply it.

In the workshop I worked in we had both automotive and industrial products. One of the reasons we had both was to compare them in experiments which students did to show the differences between the quality. Its quite noticeable, the gloss level is worse on the industrial quality, it is terrible to compound and polish in comparison and test panels we put out in the weather broke down a lot faster. The auto grade lasted far longer, don't forget Holdens were finished in N/C until 1964. And black N/C had to be used for 14-15 years after that because of the Acrylic lacquer black cracking and otherwise failing in the sunlight.

Several students came from the furnature industry and were always suprised at how bad the products they used at work actually were, the furniture trade looks at cost and there was no benefit for them to use expensive materials when the cheap ones worked well enough.

Any auto, aircraft or marine paint will fair better than those for general houshold use sold in hardware stores so if someone asks what is the best paint to use on my new timber whatnot, I would always advise him to go for the most durable one. Thats not to say anyone elses advice is wrong but I know I would like to hear all the options.