Newbie here! Non- shiny finish to use on an antique kauri tabletop?

[Libertine]

Hi folks,

This is my first post and I'm brand new to woodworking. So I apologise if my questions are silly!

I recently purchased an Edwardian wind-out extendable dining table from eBay for $300. The table top is kauri and the legs are blackwood, on little castors. The legs look nice, but the top had been stained an ugly brown colour, so I've hit it with paint stripper, and now I'm in the process of sanding off the remaining stain with a Bosch ROS which I purchased especially for the job. I have used 120 grit sandpaper for this, and the parts I've done are back to bare wood now.

So now I need to know what sort of product to use when I finish sanding the tabletop. I don't want to use any stain and I prefer the light colour of the kauri. I also don't want it to have that perfect shiny french-polish look - I would like it to look a little bit rustic, sort of,and just give a light glow to the wood. I was thinking of perhaps using wax? But I don't know if you can just put wax on as a finish, or if that's more like a polish? Or should I use an oil or a shellac? I would prefer to use a more natural product rather than a poly sealer or whatnot.

Also, do I have to sand the tabletop again with a finer grit sandpaper?

I will be using this table in my sewing room, for sewing and artwork etc, if that makes any difference.

thanks in advance!

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Libertine

Trust us, there is no such thing as a silly question here, and especially more so if you are new to the woody thing.

Sounds lovely. I used to have a large Kauri Pine dining table with turned blackwood legs and also on castors. I still have a smallish Kauri side table. Pretty much all my furniture is antique. Anyway re what finish to use, I would have to recommend first off shellac as this is what it originally would have been finished with and is sympathetic to the age of the table. It also fits in with your desire for a natural finish product.

Next off can I make a plea, please do not use Poly as this will ruin the table both in terms of appearance and its value. Poly is completely the wrong material for an antique.

What you can use and is available from the forum sponsor Ubeaut is hard shellac as this is far more forgiving than say traditional shellac finishes, albeit I have actually only used normal orange shellac for all my antiques. The other beauty with shellac is that it is so easy to repair if any damage to the finish occurs and best of all when combined with a nice wax (bees wax or similar), it will provide both protection plus feel so right to the touch. That is what is lovely with antique furniture how they look and feel.

I note your preference to not have a full on gloss finish associated with traditional French Polishing. In using shellac (which is afterall what french polishers use), you don't have to create such a glossy appearance. It is perfectly simple to create a more soft/dull appearance, even if padding on or using a brush to apply shellac.

There are a range of other products eg oil based Tung, organoil etc which equally could be used to finish your table off if you wish.

In sanding back I note you say you have cut it back with 120, that is ok, but again one of the things with antiques and their appeal-patina, is the bumps, marks, scratches etc. If you sand it back too far so that it looks new, again you in effect will ruin the table's value as an antique. So all I am saying is be careful how far you sand back.

Prior to applying what ever finish you choose to, you will need to lightly sand back with progressively finer grade papers, but preferably around 240 and 400 to obtain a nice feel to the surface. Again I always cut back between multiple coats of shellac (3-4 coats then cut back and thereafter re-coat with another 3-4 coats etc) that have been applied, but only ever with fine grade papers.

I can explain the way to apply shellac if you need but I don't wish to preech to you, it is your project-table and therefore your choice. In my thread under the restoration section I explain how to use shellac to achieve both a full deep lustre or as you are interested in achieving a softer-duller look. Alternatively Ubeaut has the polishers handbook and there are plenty of videos on youtube which also explain about the use of shellac.

Hope that helps a little.

[Libertine]

Thanks for the advice! I have a few more questions now I'm afraid...

When you say that hard shellac is more forgiving that the garden variety, do you mean it's forgiving in terms of application, or in terms of wear and tear from daily use?

Today I finished sanding back the top with 120 grit paper (I had to use this to get the horrible 1980s brown stain off, as 2 x goes with paint stripper didn't work very much) but I think I will have to get one of those mouse sander thingies to do the edges and sides. I'm not very skilled with my ROS yet as I've only had it for a day - is this what I should be using when sanding with 240 and 400 grit paper, and for cutting back between coats of finish? Or should I do that by hand?

And when I cut back between coats of finish, what grit paper should I be using?

I know what you mean about leaving the dings and scratches on the table. This one doesn't have a lot of damage to the table top, but it does have some grey coloured stains what are visible now that I have sanded the brown stuff off. One of these stains has clearly been made by a cup ring, and there are a few other grey spots and scratched areas too. Should I just leave these in, do you think?
There are lots of knocks around the edges which I have left there because they look nice.

In terms of the non-shiny finish - I just don't want it to look too 'perfect', if you know what I mean? Most of my other furniture is antique and none of those pieces have been restored at all; the house has unfinished floorboards underfoot and is held up with exposed sandblasted Oregon beams that were pinched from the old Dunlop factory in Collingwood. I don't really like new things so I don't want it to look like brand new, I just want to give it something that will have that slightly dull patina that it would have had if someone hadn't come along and stained it brown in the eighties!

And I don't want to use poly because it stinks and looks like plastic!

[Horsecroft88]

Hey you are most welcome and I am really glad to read that you understood what I was talking about patina etc. Brilliant yet another who totally dislikes Poly, it certainly is too plastic a finish in my opinion.

Ok so to your questions and I think it is always excellent to ask such questions.

As I understand it, and while I have been using shellac for the past 20 or so years, I am no expert. Neil (Ubeaut) is on the other hand. Hard shellac has some stabilising products included in it, and as such will is more durable in terms of heat and water, such that, its use for table tops etc is probably more suitable in comparison to normal shellac (be it orange, white, dewaxed etc). Shellac can be purchased in a number of forms, including flake (the most commonly available), another which I can't quite recall now and also pre-mixed. My advice, and unless a complete novice and not wishing to learn, is don't buy pre-mixed as it is an expensive way. Shellac flakes (available from all good paint shops and hardware shops) is so easy to mix yourself with Metho and will work out far more economically. Again some people talk of using denatured metho etc. Myself I have simply bought what ever is available from the hardware shop and truthfully never had any issues. Perhaps I am not quite the purist when it comes to this ??

My tried and trusted method is to pour a decent quantity of flakes into a tub or large jar/container and cover with metho. Leave it for about 30 mins or so, and thereafter stir, shake- whatever, and it should be ready to use. It should have the consistency of say milk if that makes sense. If it is too thin, just add some more flakes and allow to dissolve. Too thin means that you would need to apply so many coats to achieve a decent finish (hence makes not much sense). Too thick a solution and this will cause issues, ie hard to coat and potentially could result in an uneven surface. Easy solution though is to simply dilute your base shellac mix back with some more metho. Hope that all makes sense.

As I previously said while hard shellac is made to cope with high useage situations, I have never actually used it (so far) and have been perfectly comfortable in using normal shellac (orange) for all my antiques including many tables I have restored, all my joinery etc (I have two colonial properties !! so plenty of practice here).

I hear what you are saying re having used paint stripper and still not getting rid of the aweful 1980s stains !! urk why did they use such muck. Anyway, so long as you have now got rid of that you are ready for the next stage. Re the marks such as cup rings etc, personally unless they really bother you, I wouldn't be too concerned, since in a way perhaps they too are a part of the history of your table. THe other thing too is as you sand and coat etc, to an extent they may even fade a little.

In terms of sanding techniques, electric sanders are fine although with a table top I would want to be really careful with an orbital sander as it can leave circular sanding marks, especially when using coarse papers. The mouse sander thingy should be fine for your edges, especially if you have more of that stain to remove. Ultimately though hand sanding and always following the grain is the ideal method. That way you really can control how far you go.

From my experience, once I have prepared the surface for the original finish application (so that is having used 120, 240 and 400 papers), from thereon after, when cutting back between coats (having given say 3-4 coats of shellac), I normally would only use 400 grade paper. It is a fine paper and you really don't want to cut back too much of the shellac. All you are wanting to do is remove any surface roughness.

I really hear what you are saying re not wanting it to be too shiny, and fitting in with your home/other antiques etc. My advice for what its worth is then perhaps don't apply too many coats of shellac. The reason here is that the more coats you apply and in cutting back between coats will result in a greater depth (lustre) of finish which will result in a shiny surface. Especially if once finished and ready for waxing you also use 0000 (ultra fine) steel wool as your final cutting back medium, this is how antique restorers achieve that high french polished gloss.

So perhaps don't apply say more than around 6 coats maximum of shellac and if cutting back prior to wax polishing with fine steel wool (which I would still recommend), another trick I have found is to dip the steel wool in the wax polish and apply. This will achieve a soft/dull finish once buffed but still one which looks nice and is lovely to the touch.

The one thing here though is that you may leave some residual steel wool fibres in your polish container, and some people worry about such things (ie. risk of rust occuring). I have never experienced this and I live in Tassie. What you could do if that is a concern is to decant as much wax as you need to polish the table and discard any not used. Hope that all makes sense. If you can do so, would enjoy seeing a few pictures of the table. All the best with it.

[LGS]

Hi Libertine,

Horsecroft88 has given you some excellent information regarding Shellac and preparing the table top. I prefer to use Oil as a finish as it gives an excellent finish if done properly and can be resistant to marking by liquids and radiant heat. Also, if you get any shallow scratches, the oil can be used to cover them up, so that they don't look horrible and actually can contribute to the appearance of the finish.
My oils of choice are Wattyl Natural Teak (Scandinavian) Oil and Organoil Hard Burnishing Oil. The method for both is outlined here.

In my mind, a good finish takes some work. You have a Random Orbital Sander, so you should not get "swirlies" (sanding marks) on the surface. 400g is the minimum I would sand to and I really prefer to go up to grits in the '000's for the final finish. Once you have applied the oil and wet sanded, you are finished. No further application is required, though if you want you can coat the table with UBeaut Traditional wax.

The finish is a soft lustrous shine. The surface is very smooth. I have articles around now that were oiled 8+ years ago and they still look brilliant and have not marked at all.
If you are interested in this finish, I am happy to give you personal (free) lessons on it's application, since I am also in Melbourne.

Here's a couple of examples of the finish on Blackwood, Red Gum and Jarrah.

Regards.

Rob

[Tailsnz]

here is a recipe for a very simple to use finish that most antique dealers use... apply it with a clean rag.. tshirt material is very good. wipe it on and then wipe off excess... lay on 3 to 5 coats. easily touched up with a sand and another application.. it will blend with the previous coats like a lacquer will.

Linseed oil 70%, oil spar varnish 15%, turps or
mineral spirits 10%,
5% Japan dryer. I like to warm this mix up to make it more viscous and flow and
penetrate better. Remember that linseed oil left in rags is a fire hazard dry on concrete surface flattened out.

[Libertine]

Thank you both for your detailed replies! This is really useful info for someone who has no idea. Horsecroft - do you have any pics of some pine pieces you have finished with orange shellac? I am interested to see what they look like. Ihave a kauri pine chest of drawers, and an English oak dressing table and round dining table that I suspect may have been finished with traditional shellac, but I would need some pics to compare them too!

Rob, I love that blackwood table! It's really lovely. I had a look at the link you posted about using oils to finish timber, and I noticed in one of the pics that you have about a billion sanding discs there for all the different grits. I went to Big Green Hardware Shop today and their orbital sanding discs only went up to 240 grit. Can you tell me where I can find 125mm Velcro-backed sanding discs for my random orbital sander with finer grits that 240?

Thanks for the tip about using steel to apply polish for a less shiny look Horsecroft, I will have a go at that. Also does everyone here use Trad Wax? Is it possible just to use plain old bees wax? It smells sooooo yummy, plus we keep bees at home so it would be pretty cool to be able to use our own beeswax! But it also could be a disaster... Haha.

I'm thinking perhaps I will have a go with a couple of different finishes on the underside of the table's extension leaf or the underside of the table or something. That way I can narrow it down to two or three products that I fancy and see which one looks best with the actual wood I've got. Or is that a ridiculous idea? Urgh, decisions!

Now I don't really know how to put pics up here, and I didn't get a proper "before" shot, but I will try to post a WIP pic a took yesterday...

[LGS]

Hi again,
Thanks for the kind comments. The oil finish really is beautiful.

For grits higher than 240, you can try "The Sandpaper Man" who is a sponsor of this forum. Admittedly, the picture of the all the grits looks daunting, but once you have a set, they will last a few sandings ( I use them for about 5-10 depending on the size of the item to be sanded) and the microfibre pads (2000 and 4000g) are washable, so they can be re-used. You may actually decide to cut out some of the lower grits (dry sanding), but the list is what I use and is the lowest common denominator.
Trad wax is a mixture of components, of which bees wax is one. The problem with straight bees wax is that it is very laborious to apply and isn't very heat resistant. Trad wax has a pleasant, almost coconutty smell and I can tell you that people just love it. But then, they love the smell of Tung Oil as well.
On another tack, since you have a sewing room, perhaps you'd like a Sewing Work Box. (or Embroidery or patchwork) Here are a couple finished in Hard Burnishing Oil. The timbers are Jarrah, Red Gum, Fiddleback Blackwood, QLD Maple, Wenge (the black timber) and I think there are some others there as well. These boxes are up around 485 L x 280W x 180H mm in size. (The Greyhound doesn't sew does it?)

Regards,

Rob

[Libertine]

Hah, the greyhound doesn't do anything except lie on the couch, and chase butterflies occasionally. The vet has sewed him up a few times though. He would never make it as a racer, he runs into things

That box is really really lovely! I am a terrible box hoarder though,my husband would KILL me if I brought any more home. Apparently you can have too many boxes. Who knew?

I'll scrap the beeswax idea then, that will have to go in the too hard basket this time.

Rights, back to sanding...

PS. There are now 3 or 4 of these tables on eBay/Gumtree that are in great nick and aren't stained poo brown for about the same price as mine was! Not as much fun though, is it?

[Horsecroft88]

Hi again, and its good as a lot of excellent information is being shared here. I can't say I have ever known or heard of the surface coating mix that Tailsnz talks of. Can't even say I have ever known any antiques repairers or dealers to use such an approach but who knows perhaps they do this elsewhere than here in Tassie. All the one's I know are very traditional and use as a rule shellac.

The oil approach suggested by LGS (Rob) certainly also is an excellent approach and definitely will provide you with what you are after also, if you decided not to go with shellac. I used organoil on one of my kitchen bench tops (next to the stove) and it has provided both a durable and really lovely finish. I find it hard to obtain down here, hence I have rarely used it. I do regularly wax polish this bench top to keep it in good condition. I am a little careful re putting hot or wet objects on it, but even so, on the odd occasions they have been placed there, I havn't had any problems with marking etc.

In terms of polish, I use a traditional antique clear bees wax polish readily available from a specialist paint shop here in Hobart. Its called Old McDonalds and is both easy to apply and rub off, the finish wonderful and yes it has a lovely after aroma, which slowly fades over a few days. You can always tell when I have been polishing.

I will attach some pictures of pine (kauri dining table, kauri duchess and a kauri dresser top) as well as a small baltic pine and blackwood table, a mahogany side table, am elm chair, and a small cedar stool, all finished with orange shellac. Have plenty more images of antiques and joinery that I have restored. Hope that helps a little.

Boxes, oh dear, ah yes, perhaps this is a woody thing. I too have a somewhat smallish collection of old boxes.

[Tailsnz]

you can make your own Velcro backed sandpaper at a fraction of the cost... heres is my link make your own velcro backed sandpaper - YouTube

straight oil finishes offer very little protection to the wood but are easy to apply. if you have heard of waterlox that is the basic recipe I gave you. if not check out their site.

[LGS]

TailsNZ,
You are obviously unaware of the process of hard burnishing. This method provides excellent protection against radiant heat and liquid spills. Because the oil is absorbed into the timber, light scratches are easily handled with a quick rub down with some more oil.
Have a look here, it'll explain it to you and show you evidence of the protection offered by hard burnishing.

Regards,

Rob

[Libertine]

Hi folks, and thanks again for all your replies!

Rob, I would have to agree with all you say about the lasting qualities of oil finishes. My dad was a bit of a woodworking enthusiast, and I still have some jarrah boxes and a side table that he made for me about 15 years ago (I'm from WA and it's all about jarrah over there)! I know he used Danish oil pretty much exclusively for his finishes, and my pieces still look brand new, even though I have never used a coaster in my life, and I have been known to slop my glass of water over everything after a nightshift on a semi-regular basis... I know, I know. I shouldn't admit to this on a woodworking forum!

That said, I've decided to go with a shellac finish for my old table, as that is most likely what it would have been finished with originally. I really like the warm glow you achieved on your kauri table Horsecroft, so I will have a go at something similar. Unfortunately I can't find your threat in the Restoration forum about the application of shellac finish - could you please post the link for me?

I realise I will have to start using coasters Unfortunately I don't have any. Perhaps I should make some. Alternately I could rig up an in situ IV drip for the permanent absorption of tea directly into the bloodstream without the danger of white cup rings on the furniture.

Progress-wise, I have sanded back the tabletop to 400 grit and it feels smooth and lovely. I'm still working on the sides,which are much more fiddly and slow going, because I can't use the orbital sander, and there are lots of dents which I am trying to preserve. I'm back to work tonight so that will have to wait til next week.

Today I accidentally bought a nice old kauri blanket box (yes, another box! I'll be in big trouble) which has some slight wear on the top which I hope to restore without completely removing the finish or losing any of the dings and scratches... But one thing at a time, eh?

[LGS]

I am sure it will look beautiful. Have fun doing it.
And just tell your husband that the blanket box followed you home!!

Regards,

Rob

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Libertine, you sure sound like you are on track with the table of yours. I am glad the photos of the various pieces I have restored help you. I ended up selling both the Kauri kitchen table and Duchess (chest with mirror on it), plus a couple of other Mahogany chest of drawers to help fund the purchase of a very large early colonial fiddleback grained Cedar chest of drawers. The other half while happy in a way to see a little decluttering wasn't quite so impressed as I am by the chest of drawers. She thinks it is too large. I love it.

As to tables, it was ok to let it go, as I have both a superb cedar dining table, plus another cedar (hmn think I have a cedar thing) round breakfast table. Actually I kind of have a table problem as we still have around 11 antique tables of varying sorts/types. And I won't even get into my cedar chair collection problem that I appear to have......

Either way whether shellac or an oil finish, I am sure the table will come up really nicely. It looks like from the photos to be a good piece and definitely worth the effort in bringing it back to life, especially from the yukky '80s stain.

In terms of my thread, I am kind of embarrassed to admit it, but it is the one titled "Advice needed for some new projects." It is now 12 pages long and has had just a few views, I think close to around 11,000 at my last look. It is kind of ironic in a way, as when I first posted it, I actually was looking for help/advice with a number of projects I had planned on working on. It kind of has grown exponentially, and I seem in a way to be providing advice to others rather than usually receiving any. But I am still posting progress of projects I am working on. Currently I am doing a full restoration of an early Cedar blanket box. It needs a lot of work but I am sure it too will come up nicely.

The other thread I would suggest having a good read through is one started by Lawry, its on page 4 of the Restoration Section here, and its about 1/2 way down the page titled something like "g'day help needed with restoration of an english oak desk". This thread really discusses how to shellac finish antiques. My long thread while perhaps interesting is kind of a blog on various restoration projects etc, although the last couple pages do show and talk about shellac finishing.

If you want any advice re how to mix/apply shellac etc, please don't hesitate to ask, and I will do my best to try explain.

Look forward to seeing progress on your table.