Small bandsaws, 16" and under - Winner

[damian]

Small Bandsaw review.


Moderators: I realise these reviews are normally locked, but since I don't have all the facts to hand I would like to request this one is kept open for others to add information. That isn't an invitation for debate however, see below. If mods feel this should be moved to the bandsaw forum that's ok.


Scope: This review covers bandsaws up to 14”. It covers a range of saws I inspected at the Brisbane showrooms of Hare and Forbes, Carbatec, Trade Tools Direct and Glenfords. I do not own any of these saws nor did I actually test them. The purpose of this review is to offer a starting point for potential buyers to reduce the legwork in selection, not to present a conclusion.


I realise some of you prefer larger saws but please restrain yourself making the case for those in this thread. There are other threads existing for that.


I am a metalworker by trade and mechanical engineer by profession. I claim no special knowledge of wood work but do know something of machinery and physics. I am happy to accept I'm wrong but I would prefer that discussion elsewhere in the forum. This is a review, and while it inevitably includes my opinions, follow-ups in this thread should be confined to corrections in matters of fact and added information.


Some preliminary notes:


Frame materials. All the saws have fabricated steel frames apart from the BP-14A class machines. Cast iron is less strong than steel size for size but this is compensated for in more massive structures. Cast iron is more stiff than steel and it is suggested this benefits the saws function. That debate should be for another thread. It has been suggested that the blade can be tensioned on some models such that the frame bends. That is obviously a catastrophic failure of the saw and while repair is possible it is probably uneconomic. Cast iron will break after it has bent very little so possibly the steel would at least offer some warning. My advice is to be mindful of blade tension.


Wheel materials. Suppliers suggest that one material might be superior to another. I don't accept that out of hand, I believe this requires closer examination. For example an iron wheel adds a flywheel effect but variations in density in an aluminium wheel will cause less vibration. I suggest it is th quality of the wheels more than just material that makes a better bandsaw.


Power. The point of a bandsaw is to drag the blade through the work from guide to table. The cut is affected by both the speed of the blade and the force with which it is progressed. This is a function of gearing as well as motor power. This is important as we will se with the BP-14A class machines.


Blade guides. Broadly of 3 types, rubbing block, euro style discs and ball bearings. There are quality and feature differences within the types.


Prices are those I saw on the day, obviously they float around a lot.


Starting with the smallest I looked over:


H&F BP-250 and similar.


Carbatec has essentially the same saw under part number BAS-250 for about$20 more. As far as I could tell these are identical. Prospective buyers should not write these off. They are obviously limited in capacity, but if your only work is small or medium size softwood they are beautifully made and feature rich. At $279 the H&F machine is an absolute bargain. Not a premier class machine, but as nice as anything in these reviews. Bearing blade guides, reasonable fences.


BP-14A class.


There are numerous variations on this machine. I'll discuss the H&F machine first then the others. These are “out there” amongst this collection being the most different. Cast iron frame, 4 speeds (154, 263, 418, 640). The H&F has the worst fence I saw on any machine, just a lump of cast iron and pinch bolt, too low and hard to set accurately. This actually suits me because I was always going to fit my own, once you've held an incra in your hands there is no going back. The miter slot has no shoulders, but I THINK it's a standard size one. The cast iron table is of average quality, the tilt mechanism crude, block blade guides. Everything about this machine is rough, but it all can be put right also. The H&F mounts the 3/4 horse motor on a simple vertical plate in the base. It drives a 4 pulley tree to an opposite off the lower wheel. The bas has absolutely hopeless plastic plates to cover in the motor, no doubt a nod to H&S. A larger motor could be fitted easily provided you can match speed (1440?) and shaft size (seemed like about 16 mm), however it may not be necessary. As mentioned above it's force at the blade that counts and since this machine can be geared down much lower than any of the others it has the potential to be amongst the most forceful at the lower speeds. This isn't ideal of course, but it makes motor replacement not automatically necessary. I really like the switch. It's near the knee and has a safety cover stop plate, so you just bang it to shut down leaving the hands free. The carbatec equivalent is in the same position but the display lacked this feature. The catalogue pic confirms this. No built in dust collection, you have to rig your own or buy add ons.

Jet make 2 saws in this class but both are single speed and I did not inspect them. Prices from Gary Pye: Open stand $575, closed stand $699.




Carbatec SW-1401.


This is going to sound like I have issues with carbatec. I don't, in fact I made a purchase while there today. Having said that they are rarely the cheapest source. I don't mind paying something more for the service and expertise, but this machine is a disaster. $559 as opposed to H&F's $419, no fence at all included, and for the life of me I couldn't find a difference apart from a carbatec sticker and rubbing blocks in a much sexier shade of black. Sorry $140 is too much of a difference.


Trade Tools Direct WBS 1403


$448, 1/2 horse mounted off the back of the machine like “normal” saws, open stand, 3 speed according to specs but couldn't see how that is accomplished. Different table, still iron but I believe smaller and ribbed! Whoever though that was a good idea on a band saw obviously hasn't used one. Better fence. It's possible this machine is better suited to someone's needs but I can't imagine who. YMMV. It's the only bandsaw they had in the shop and on the website so may be their only offering. They specialise in hand power tools so...


Timbecon Sherwood MJ-3435-W $499.


The writeup on this machine says bearing guides. If they are the deluxe set offered separately by carbatec and others for $89 that makes this the best value variation of the saw, but because most people don't live in Perth there is shipping to consider. Obviously I didn't inspect this machine as I didn't have time to do the 9000 km round trip today If someone KNOWS about the blade guides I'd love to hear about it. The switch is like the carbatec one.


H&F BP-300


Glenfords tools had 3 bandsaws on display, as well as a meat one. They had an equivalent machine to this one at H&F at $535 and I got a written quote at $489, a cool $110 cheap than H&F. For a moment I thought I'd found a bargain but closer inspection revealed the glenfords machine had euro style disc blade guides and the H&F machine bearings. Otherwise apart from a sexy black paint job the H&F machine is identical as far as I could see. 2 speeds 1hp, nice feature set. For my needs the Glenfords machine is the runner up to the H&F BP14A, at $70 more you lose 2 speeds and force at low speed should be slightly less, but the machine is much nicer all round, and the miter slots LOOK standard and have shoulders.


16” machines.


Carbatec CTJ-3501 and BAS-350


BAS-350 at $699 is $100 cheaper than the BP-355, smaller motor (1.5 vs 2 hp) and less nice fence, different wheel covers and IMO less nice switch. The CTJ-3501 has a 1 hp motor according to the catalogue (I forgot to look) and at BP-355 price, well, I think I'd buy the 355. Nice off switch though, I like a big emergency off switch. I'd prefer it by my knee though.


H&F BP-355 and BP-16A.


These two are about the same size and price at $799. I am sure I'm missing something here, but I don't understand why anyone would buy the 16A. The 355 is the point where you get a full feature set, all the nice stuff, and real quality, at least as far as I could tell, throughout the whole machine. It's a bit bigger than I wanted to go and I'm not convinced it's ok for steel cutting, but for a wood only bandsaw it really looks the business. The 16A has euro guides opposed to the 355's bearings, the 355 has tension window, nicer fence and is just nicer all over. The throat/height are slightly different so I suppose if you wanted the extra width...


So that's it. No conclusions. I wrote this because I've spent this last week trying to get my head around this collection of saws. There is a matrix of models and feature sets along with prices offered by each vendor. There are some standouts and some also-rans. If your looking for one of these machines this review won't finish your search, but hopefully it'll help you get your bearings at the start.

[damian]

2 things.

First I forgot the Scheppach Basato 3. The reason I forgot it is because upon inspecting the machine I immediately dismissed it as unsuitable. While this machine is feature rich I have issues with it's quality and durability. The blade guards are secured with flimsy overcenter latches. The tilt table is a handwheel with gears on it's shaft which engage a toothed protractor. Unfortunately the protractor is sheet steel and looks inadequate to my eye. The blade guards are euro discs. Others may argue this but I am unconvinced constantly variable speed control is required in a band saw and the range is no greater than the 2 speed machines. If you are very careful with your machines and don't put too much volume through it might appeal, but I believe the others in this class are better options.$689 at H&F on the day.

Secondly the 16A is a 16" machine the carbatec machines along with the a 355 are 14" machines. There is about 35 mm more throat in the 16A over the 355 which might matter to some, but the 16A has 25 mm less height if you believe H&F specs.

No doubt I've made other errors. Top be honest my head's still spinning a bit

[ubeaut]

The comments etc for this Review have been merged into one Post rather than deleted as they also contain some relevant information and comments pertaining to the original Review.

Cheers - Neil

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Carry Pine

Thank you for the reviews, Damian. Much appreciated and a change from the reviews that 'do' all the others and then say the Festool is the best choice.

For those in the market for a 'big' tool it is often daunting to compare all the features and extras. It's also very frustrating to know that most equipment comes out of China and,as some would suggest, the same factory.

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benja

Have to agree with the review. Spent a few hours yesterday looking around at tool shops- with the missus! (well she is going to buy me the saw for my birthday). Carbatec saw is almost the same as the H&F machine, but fixed speed, and lots more expensive. TradeTools, well even the missus said it looked cheap and nasty! Added to that, the split, ribbed table is easily flexed by hand.
So it looks like the missus only has to shop for me at the one store- H&F for the bandsaw, and the 8 piece turning chisel set. Next weekend, looks like i will be in the workshop!

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Bodgy,

A word of warning for anyone considering the 1100 watt. 14" bandsaw, the generic chinese model common to most suppliers.

Don't.

Whilst mine has some good points, such as powerful enough, it is otherwise absolutely dreadful.

1. The table is woefully warped, impossible to get 90 degrees to the blade both sides. Big dip in the middle
2. The casting is not true and bends when cutting
3. The upper guides stop one getting the 150mm cut height and does not slide true
4. Without a mod, its impossible to get a decent tension on the blade, the adjusting bolt simply digs into the cast iron.
5. Both the original and the after market fence dont let you get sufficient adjustment to off set the bias of the blade to cut a bit left or right
6. Even moderate tightening of the bolts which are seated in the casting causes the raised cast which is tapped to shear off.

You can get it to cut straight, but change any one setting or the work piece and its back to the drawing board. It is truly a definitive POS.

I would love to replace it but I only have 1740mm head room in that part of the shop, so apart from major surgery with the angle grinder can't find a decent one to fit

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Carry Pine

Another great and valuable review from someone at the coalface. Thank you.

I'm now going to do the exercise of comparing Bodgy's review to a review of the tool in one of the woodwork magazines. Should be interesting.

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Damian

Is that the last 3 I reviewed ? the 355, 3501 and 350 ? Because I thought the 355 was a somewhat different machine to the 2 carbatec ones. Could be wrong ? Would like a clarification so people are warned.

Happy to admit I'm wrong. I looked over them as best I could.

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Bodgy,

I can't really say if it is the same. It seems that the importers and badgers of these generic machines, get whats sent - to a great extent. I imagine that there are relatively few Chinese factories producing these things and I expect they all subcontract. Hence in any machine, the table could come from a different supplier, as could the motor etc etc. One batch of castings could be good, one crook.

All I can say is that mine is a lemon and potential buyers should be very careful and test and measure as much as possible. Pay particular attention to the table. The other problems can be fixed or mitigated to an extent, but a bowed table is a thing of joy forever.Not. Sure you can put on a false table, but that not only cuts down the meagre cut heigh but also stuffs your fence.

Incidentally, mine came from Timbecon but looks identical to all the others of the non-Euro, 14" genre.

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Carry Pine

16” machines.

Carbatec CTJ-3501 and BAS-350

BAS-350 at $699 is $100 cheaper than the BP-355, smaller motor (1.5 vs 2 hp) and less nice fence, different wheel covers and IMO less nice switch. The CTJ-3501 has a 1 hp motor according to the catalogue (I forgot to look) and at BP-355 price, well, I think I'd buy the 355. Nice off switch though, I like a big emergency off switch. I'd prefer it by my knee though.

Please note that the carbatec catalogue has these band saws listed as 14 inch.

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Damian

Sere my second post. I made a mistake there.

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Carry Pine

As I said earlier, much appreciated post, Damian.

Would viewers like to guess when a comparison (road test) of band saws was last done by the 'Wood Review'? Considering there is at least one serious road test every edition- remarkable.

(I notice a West Aussie distributor has Carbatec machines for mega dollars off. Guess he is not including GST in his advertised prices?

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BobL

I just finished assembling my 19" (carbatec) bandsaw this evening and have to say I am very pleased with how it all went together and I checked and adjusted the squareness of everything using my Wixey angle finder - and all is sweet. Of course the proof will be in the cutting but it was a bit late to fire it up and upset the neighbors.

[Morbius]

Hi!
I read through these posts and found them pretty informative. I have been tossing up between the Scheppach Basato 4 Wood Band Saw and the Hare & Forbes Model BP-355 Wood Band Saw and was wondering if anyone had done any comparisons or had any experience with the Basato 4. I did see that the Basato 3 is covered above, but wasn't too enthusiastic about the apparent quality.
Any advice about this would be welcome.

Thanks,

Craig

[Mr Brush]

Search the forum and you'll find a few threads on the Basato 4.

I have one (purchased over the BP-355). Once fitted with a decent blade I'm very happy with it. HOWEVER, I'd recommend against buying one solely due to the totally crappy manual supplied. Unless you are in touch with someone who has already been through the assembly process, you'll find it very frustrating.

I've assembled machines from several suppliers over the years, and the Basato 4 takes the prize for most useless manual ever. Almost no help in assembling the thing, and zero help in tuning/aligning the thing afterwards. I finally got the wheels on mine running coplanar, but totally by trial and error. The manual offers no clues at all.

Fortunately I had some help from Ray ('wheelinround' on this forum) as I was assembling mine. We compared notes, and I'm pretty sure we both had the same parts left over at the end

Both of us have let H&F know what we thought of the manual supplied, but I'd be willing to bet it hasn't changed.

[Mr Brush]

Craig - if you feel like a drive in the country, you're welcome to come have a go with my Basato 4 on your way to H&F in Sydney.....

[Morbius]

Mr Brush,

That's a kind offer

What do you think of the machine?

Craig

[Mr Brush]

Very happy with mine. The thing that put me off the BP-355 was the highly visible frame welds and general finish, which I didnt think was as good as the Basato 4.

I'm sure there's little to choose between them in cutting performance, when both are correctly set up.

I've set up my Basato 4 to cut dead straight relative to the mitre slots - adjusting the tracking of the blade on the wheels is very easy with this machine. With a 1/2" 3tpi bi-metal blade (from the usual suspects) it will cut 4-6" thick hardwood dead straight without missing a beat. I also bought a 1/4" 6 tpi blade for curvy stuff.

One thing that might make your mind up is the different guides on the two machines. The Basato 4 has "euro" style guides which you will either love or hate. The BP-355 has the more traditional bearing guides. I suspect that the guides on the BP-355 will give you more options if you want to change/upgrade them; you would find 'cool blocks' etc. to fit the BP-355 fairly easily, while the guide mounting system on the Basato 4 would prevent an easy swapout.

I suspect that H&F sell many more BP-355 than Basato 4. They seem to have the BP-355 in stock most of the time, while the Basato 4 comes and goes a bit (and the price goes up and down a bit too....). I had to call in on Ray to get a look at a Basato 4, as H&F never seemed to have one on display.....

[wheelinround]

My ears were burning
Yes love the Basato
I can't add much to what Mr Bush has said already, the tilt table for me once set up brilliant . The quick release handle for slacking off the blade same.
Mitre gauge, fence etc so far no problem.

If Mr Bush isn't available on your way to H&Fs I am at the end of the M5 offer is there to call in.

Ray

[Mr Brush]

heh, heh - I suspect the cake is better at Ray's place.........

Ray - did you end up getting any better blades for your Basato 4?? That 1/2" 3tpi bi-metal jobby is a wonderful thing !

[wheelinround]

heh, heh - I suspect the cake is better at Ray's place.........

Ray - did you end up getting any better blades for your Basato 4?? That 1/2" 3tpi bi-metal jobby is a wonderful thing !

Not yet still using the extra ones H&F's gave me with BS 2x4tpi 2x6tpi

Oh the riginal one broke at the join it was fixed but just last week snapped badly none repairable for the Basato 4 so will cut it and use it for the metal BS which is smaller. Maybe even a Bow saw blade.

[pellcorp]

I understand you guys probably did not look at the jet because of it's limited resaw. However when I was looking to purchase a bandsaw last year I looked at h&f and carbatec. The saws in the leas than 18" seemed cheap and poorly constructed from these stores. The jet 14" deluxe was the total opposite and now that I have had it for a year I can tell you emphatically I don't regret it! An awesome saw very well made.

If I could have afforded it I would have purchased a carbatec 18" which I did love the feel of

[Morbius]

I was at the Canberra Working with Wood Show yesterday, and the Jet and Major 14" Bandsaws were the only guys really in the running, as far as I could see. Pity so many other retailers stayed away this year.

Craig

P.S. I spoke to the MAJOR dealer who was saying that the 14" MAJOR's only difference to the Jet is $400 cheaper and a better fence. From looking at the machine (including the gizzards), I believe him.

[Brett Morgan]

Thanks for the review Damien, could anyone recommend a benchtop bandsaw?I have been researshing the rockwell and GMC models, In my price range, and since I'm only doing light cutting I cant justify the expense of a floor standing model, I'm only going to be knocking up some guitar necks so probably the biggest timber would be 50x100, would this do the job?Sorry I'm a woodworking noob

Cheers

Brett