Cabots Danish Oil formula change?

[Lplates]

Hey guys,

Just bought new can of danish oil since my old one gummed up into a jelly like substance inside the can after being left for 6+months. I used it for the first time last night on my new router table build and I noticed that the application instructions have changed. They used to advise leaving it on for 5-10min and then wiping off and allowing to dry 8hrs, where as the new can just says, apply and leave for 8hrs. This is great and all since it eliminates the wiping process which could be a pain in the past, just wondering if they have changed the formula or not. It does appear to be much clearer, not as yellowing as it was previously. I'm just wondering if it will still provide a similar satin finish as the old stuff which i am quite fond of. I guess i'll see when i apply all the coats to my current work.

Both cans were from Cabots; The original was bought some 2-3yrs ago and the new one just recently. Shame i've thrown out the old can as i would have liked to post some pics.

Anyone noticed the change?

[Chesand]

Perhaps you should ring Cabots.

[Lplates]

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to add an update for my experience with this product. I have tried refinishing one of my tables with this stuff (it was originally done with "danish oil" too), i sanded it back to the hard maple up to 180g and then applied a coat. Have to say i was very disappointed with the result. The "oil" didn't penetrate at all, it just sat on the surface and dried to form a shiny layer not too different from polyurethane.

In my opinion the formula has definitely changed, i would hazard that they removed the tung oil from the mix and made it more of a wiping varnish.

Anyway, I now have some three litres left of the stuff so i will have to use it for lesser projects. The table will need resanding and refinishing.... *sigh*

Cheers
Mat

[LGS]

Switch to Wattyl Natural Teak Oil (Scandinavian) and you will get a beautiful result every time.

Regards,

Rob

[Lplates]

Switch to Wattyl Natural Teak Oil (Scandinavian) and you will get a beautiful result every time.

Regards,

Rob

Thanks Rob, i did see that in the store. I'll give it a go. I was actually thinking about doing a bit of experimenting with some tung oil based home made mixes but i don't know if it's worth re-inventing the wheel. might just go with commercial products that have drying agents added so i don't have to wait days between coats for drying.

[LGS]

Hi LPlates,

If you've got a ROS, try this. Seems like lots of work, actually takes a max of 1 hour (usually less.) Try it on some scrap first to get the hang of it. Simple, but brilliant.

Here's a dining table done this way.

Regards,

Rob

[ubeaut]

Just wanted to add an update for my experience with this product. I have tried refinishing one of my tables with this stuff (it was originally done with "danish oil" too), i sanded it back to the hard maple up to 180g and then applied a coat. Have to say i was very disappointed with the result. The "oil" didn't penetrate at all, it just sat on the surface and dried to form a shiny layer not too different from polyurethane.

Danish oil is basically watered down Polyurethane.

Danish oil will penetrate into the timber and polymerise.

Sanding back to timber surface does not mean you have sanded out the Danish Oil, just sanded it off the surface.

Reapplying the oil over the sanded out stuff will not allow the oil to penetrate because the pores of the timber are already filled with the polymerised DO so all you will get is a surface coating that will dry..... You guessed it. Like polyurethane.

If you want a really nice finish you probably should be sanding to much higher grit of paper than 180 which is basically at the top end of course abrasives and won't give the greatest of finishes no matter what you use.

As Chesand rightly said. "Perhaps you should ring Cabots."

Always the best bet, when in doubt, is to make a phone call to the manufacturer. They are the only ones who know for sure and can tell you exactly what you need to know about their product. Anything else is pretty much speculation.

We make EEE-Ultra Shine which is a wax with an abrasive in it. The abrasive is a natural stone and in mining it can often change colour from a pale cream through to a deep tan. Whenever we make a batch with a different colour we get lots of calls saying it has changed and doesn't work the same way it did in the past etc, etc....... Nothing changes just the colour. IUt is the same abrasive, the same grit size, the same wax mixture. All that changes is peoples perception of the product.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil

[Lplates]

Danish oil is basically watered down Polyurethane.

Danish oil will penetrate into the timber and polymerise.

Sanding back to timber surface does not mean you have sanded out the Danish Oil, just sanded it off the surface.

Reapplying the oil over the sanded out stuff will not allow the oil to penetrate because the pores of the timber are already filled with the polymerised DO so all you will get is a surface coating that will dry..... You guessed it. Like polyurethane.

If you want a really nice finish you probably should be sanding to much higher grit of paper than 180 which is basically at the top end of course abrasives and won't give the greatest of finishes no matter what you use.

As Chesand rightly said. "Perhaps you should ring Cabots."

Always the best bet, when in doubt, is to make a phone call to the manufacturer. They are the only ones who know for sure and can tell you exactly what you need to know about their product. Anything else is pretty much speculation.

We make EEE-Ultra Shine which is a wax with an abrasive in it. The abrasive is a natural stone and in mining it can often change colour from a pale cream through to a deep tan. Whenever we make a batch with a different colour we get lots of calls saying it has changed and doesn't work the same way it did in the past etc, etc....... Nothing changes just the colour. IUt is the same abrasive, the same grit size, the same wax mixture. All that changes is peoples perception of the product.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil

Thanks Neil.

You're probably right about the polymerization in the surface of the wood being the issue on the table. Overall it didn't come out too bad and the poly type finish is actually good for easy wiping down which is good since this is an outdoor table that gets dusty quickly.

In regards to the product change, it may or may not have changed but the application instructions have changed hence my thought about the mixture change. I have also tried it on various bare soft and hard woods and it does come out differently to what it did in the past, not the poly look that it had on the table though. Overall it's probably easier to apply now since you don't need to rub it down after 10 minutes.

I can appreciate that calling cabots would be ideal if I needed some info from them but I don't really. I was just raising this as a point of conversation here. Thank you all for the replies. I am quite inexperienced in terms of finishing so I think it's time i broadened my horizons and tried some proper oil finishes anyway. Thanks Ros for the suggestion, i might give it a go on some practice material and see how it comes out.

Cheers
mat

[rsser]

Something sold as 'Danish Oil' can have anything in it as I'm discovering doing some desk research.

I'd welcome Neil's correction ... this is my summary so far:

1. Some kind of seed or nut oil.
2. A solvent.
3. Most have some kind of drier.
4. Some kind of solid. Described in most cases as a resin or a urethane.

The proportions clearly vary, leading to diff. recommendations for application and diff. results.

You could get the MSDS for the product but decoding these requires some background in chemical engineering I'd say.

[ubeaut]

List of ingredients for the original style Danish Oil type finishes would have had a basic list of ingredients like this:

Spar varnish or stand oil, linseed and/or tung oil, turpentine.

Later Danish Oil basically rely on polyurethane, linseed and turps or something similar to make them work.

Some of the better ones use tung oil with or instead of linseed.

Some of the more green ones use a mixture of oils including nut and seed and limonene (Citrus oil).

Pretty well all of them rely on synthetic polymers like or similar to polyurethane to make them polymerise in the timber.

The above is generalisation and does not refer to any one particular manufacturer.

As the old motor oil ad used to say.... ''Oils ain't oils!"

Danish Oil: There are a few on the market.

• some are fantastic,
• some good to OK
• some mediocre at best.
• Most will give you a slightly different finish, whilst some don't seem to work at all.

Tung Oil:

• There is pure tung oil (China wood oil). Not dead easy to get but it is more readily available now than a few years ago. Look for the words PURE TUNG OIL on the label.
• There is tung oil finish, Watered down tung oil. Look for the words Tung Oil FINISH on the label.
• There is stuff that's called tung oil finish that doesn't even have any tung oil in it. No idea what to look for in on the label. Spoke to a Cleaning chemicals agent/supplier in Geelong a few years ago who said he mixed cheap polyurethane with mineral turpentine and sold it as Ting Oil Finish for upkeep of floors. etc. (shudder).

Teak Oil:

• Here's part of the blurb from a Teak Oil manufacturer "teak oil is a natural oil that can be found in teak trees and that is used to restore teak wood." Yeah right.
• Teak oil basically linseed oil from 10-25% watered down to 100% dramatically with a number of and variety of solvents like, turpentine, Methyl Ethyl Ketoxime, solvent naptha, etc, ann the addition of a cobalt dryer.

Cheers

[LGS]

According to the MSDS for Wattyl Natural Teak Oil (Scandinavian), the product contains mainly Mineral Turps and "synthetic" oils, plus some additives I assume are driers and hardeners. There is no mention of Linseed oil, but then there is no mention of Teak Oil either. I will say that it burnishes well and gives very good resistance to fluids and radiant heat. (According to an evaluation I did some months ago of several different oils)
Organoil Hard Burnishing Oil also gives a great satin finish, which lasts very well and resists heat and fluid. Procedure is a little more difficult than the Teak Oil method.
Liberon Pure Tung Oil mixed 1:2 with White Spirit or Terpene (citrus Oil) will also give excellent results when hard burnished.

Regards,

Rob

[rsser]

Good points.

There's also a lot you can do to vary the finish of a given product: wet sanding; cutting back; adding a coat of quality wax over the top.

I do turning and my first turning teacher was meticulous about finishing: sand to #2500; wet sand with Organoil Hard Burnishing Oil; polycrystalline wax over the top followed by buffing with a lambswool bonnet.

He found as I did that that Organoil product had a tendency to raise the grain after a few weeks and we both gave up on it.

I found that FW Scandinavian oil had more poly than my then newly preferred finish and that made it a better option for fruit bowls - resisted staining from 'leaks' better.

One thing I abhor is high gloss finishes. All you see is reflections rather than wood

[LGS]

Hi Ern,
The thing about HBO is that you have to be meticulous in getting any unabsorbed oil away from the wood. Organoil recommend using McDonalds paper napkins(I kid you not!!) after the 400 and before the 1200g paper. I use slightly different approach and while I've had some lifting, generally it works well. I just don't let pieces out the door until I'm happy it's not going to look like a mess. Festool recommend this McDonald's thing for their oil system as well. Both rely on really heavy saturation that just isn't necessary.

FW Scandinavian oil is not representative of all Scan. Oils. I achieve excellent satin finishes using a hard burnishing regime with Wattyl product. As I said below, there's no Poly or Linseed Oil in the mix. You might like to give it a try on something you are turning and see. You can buy little 250ml cans of it. Should give a sensational result.

Regards,

Rob

[wood hacker]

According to the MSDS for Wattyl Natural Teak Oil (Scandinavian), the product contains mainly Mineral Turps and "synthetic" oils, plus some additives I assume are driers and hardeners. There is no mention of Linseed oil, but then there is no mention of Teak Oil either. I will say that it burnishes well and gives very good resistance to fluids and radiant heat. (According to an evaluation I did some months ago of several different oils)
Organoil Hard Burnishing Oil also gives a great satin finish, which lasts very well and resists heat and fluid. Procedure is a little more difficult than the Teak Oil method.
Liberon Pure Tung Oil mixed 1:2 with White Spirit or Terpene (citrus Oil) will also give excellent results when hard burnished.

Regards,

Rob

Rob

One thing to be careful of when interperating an MSDS is that they are only required to declare hazardous ingredients. Anything that isn't considered hazardous by Worksafe Australia does not have to be listed on the MSDS although some manufacturers will also list non haz materials.. Looking at that particular one they only total to 100% if everything listed is at the top end of the stated range, which I guess is possible but not likely. More likely is that there are some non hazardous ingredients that make up the rest of the formula. As far as I can see neither tung oil nor linseed oil are considered hazardous by worksafe so would not necessarily appear on the MSDS but could still be part of the formula.

cheers
WH

[LGS]

One thing to be careful of when interperating an MSDS is that they are only required to declare hazardous ingredients. Anything that isn't considered hazardous by Worksafe Australia does not have to be listed on the MSDS although some manufacturers will also list non haz materials.. Looking at that particular one they only total to 100% if everything listed is at the top end of the stated range, which I guess is possible but not likely. More likely is that there are some non hazardous ingredients that make up the rest of the formula. As far as I can see neither tung oil nor linseed oil are considered hazardous by worksafe so would not necessarily appear on the MSDS but could still be part of the formula.

Hi WH,

The point is duly taken. Wattyl are not giving anything other than the hazardous components away. Some months back I did an evaluation of Liberon PureTung Oil. FW Danish Oil, Wattyl Teak Oil and Organoil HBO. Results were interesting a least. Resolution of grain was best with the Tung Oil and worst with Danish Oil. Any Poly in the mix (FW Danish Oil) caused some coagulation of the oil while it was being hard burnished, which didn't help the results. I have not tried BLO for hard burnishing, but will do so now. As it stands, the most likely extra (if there is one) in the Teak Oil is Tung Oil. It shall be interesting to see how BLO copes with the testing.
Tests included quality of finish, resistance to liquid (hot and cold), resistance to radiant heat (pot full of boiling water directly on to the surface) and ability to be cleaned with ordinary kitchen spray cleaners with no surface damage.
I'll let you know the results.

Regards,

Rob