Milling opinions

[Luca Gilbear]

Hi,

I'm fairly new around here, and very green when it comes to milling, and I would like some advice on getting some logs cut up. I don't know whether to get in a portable mill or send the logs to a local fixed mill.

So I have a property near Taree NSW with excellent blackbutt and tallowwood forest, some of the best timber trees i've seen.

I want to get just a few trees (6 or so) milled up for an office/staffroom to be built on the same property. I assumed getting my own trees milled would be cheaper than just buying the sawn timber..
It is a post and beam structure, built 3m off the ground so underneath is an open shed area.
So the timber needed will be fairly big stuff, 6x6 posts, 8x3s, 6x3s, down to 4x2s, 3x2s and some decking.
The timber will largely be visible, and needs to be nice and straight, not all bent and warped and cupped, and I want to build it all for minimal cost.
i will be stacking and drying all the timber onsite for 6 months or so before building, and I spose getting the decking finished somewhere or buying a planer.

The trees i want cut up are good straight straight blackbutt and tallowwood, 500mm to 800mm diameter, most 10 - 20m to first branches. Maybe 80m (length not cubic) total. A couple were killed by lightning, were felled and have been laying for 5 years or so, a couple have just been felled and a couple are still standing.

I can get a local mill, who I have heard do a good job, to cut it up for $140/cubic metre. Would people advise this or getting in a portable mill (lucas or similar) and experienced operator? I don't know of any in the area, but there would be several around.

Thanks if you made it this far (I thought details might help).

L

[BobL]

Those sizes of timber will not dry in 6 months.
Anything bigger than 3x4 will take 3-4 years to dry - 6 x 6 will take 5 years to dry properly.
You can of course see about getting them kiln dried but make sure you get someone that knows what they are doing or the will look exactly like "not all bent and warped and cupped"

Cheers

[Bushmiller]

Luca

Welcome to the forums and in particular the timber milling section.

Initially I would have said that a portable miller would be the way to go for both price and flexibility in cutting the wide range of sizes you will need.

However the price of $140 per M3 you have quoted sounds very cheap. Is that for the round log (a rule of thumb may be 50% recovery from the round log) or the sawn timber? In the round that would equate to $280 per M3. Presumeably you still have to arrange for the logs to get to the mill and then the resulting sawn timber back home again. Timber jinkers rely on ramps and large loaders or bulldozers to load their trucks. You probably don't have that so a truck with a good sized crane would be neccessary

It might pay to clarify these points and I would double check the quote of $140.

Some of our active portable millers may be interested in contacting you via a PM and discussing further.

Regards
Paul

[Luca Gilbear]

Thanks for the replys.

I know it wont be dry in 6 months, but I was going to build wet. The decking I was hoping would dry enough to be finished. The rest of it will not be finished at all. A bit of shrinkage wont be too bad. Its not for a house, so i dont need it all polished and shiny.

As for the mill, I don't know how they work out their metreage. I will go see them over the next couple of days. I have a freind with a tilt tray that'll handle 9 tonne or so, if not theres another bloke with a bigger truck and a hiab that can help me, so hopefully price will be ok.

[Luca Gilbear]

I was going to cut the logs to 7m lengths for easier handling, transporting etc. My 45HP kubota will at least roll the ones it wont drag.

Lucas.

[rustynail]

Id be checking that price as it seems a bit on the low side. Most mills, doing private orders, usually charge an hourly rate. Large orders are m3 on log tally. Ongoing orders are m3 off the saw. So its a matter of determining what the price is actually for.
I operate a Lucas mill up the headwaters of the Manning river if you do need to use an onsite operator. We cease operation in mid October and dont restart until April each year. Milling in summer is not good for drying.

[MAPLEMAN]

If access to the trees is reasonable,i would be inclined to engage a portable sawmill..save yourself snigging costs,transporting said logs to the mill,and then transporting the sawn product back home.There would be mobile millers out there that also charge a log cube rate(which i think is the fairest way to go) like the fixed mill,so shop around.Incidently,i mill during the summer months..no problem,just be aware that wood borers become more active in the summer months and may attack the sapwood and (or) heartwood,and try to keep logs, as well as sawn product,out of direct sunlight.Stack in a cool, well ventilated shed,sticker every piece,end seal everything,and do it without delay.... you shouldn't have any dramas...milling in the cooler months,particularly in areas that recieve alot of rain ,can be problematic,because of the mould factor.Good luck...

[rustynail]

The two timber species you mention are Blackbutt and Tallowwood. Both excellent timbers for your purpose. BUT, they each require special treatment if you want a quality end product. As Mapleman has pointed out, summer requires quick action.
Blackbutt would have to be one of the worst timbers to cut in summer as it is very prone to checking, or surface cracking. It is not susceptable to borer in either heart or sap wood, but logs felled during the hotter months will end split, sealed or not sealed. Tallow, on the other hand, is far more stable and more forgiving. Nonetheless, initial drying in summer will produce defects that can be avoided by starting the process during the cooler months. The secret to both these species and, for that matter, most eucalypts, the slower they dry the better. By the way, neither specie is prone to mould unless stored incorrectly.

[MAPLEMAN]

The two timber species you mention are Blackbutt and Tallowwood. Both excellent timbers for your purpose. BUT, they each require special treatment if you want a quality end product. As Mapleman has pointed out, summer requires quick action.
Blackbutt would have to be one of the worst timbers to cut in summer as it is very prone to checking, or surface cracking. It is not susceptable to borer in either heart or sap wood, but logs felled during the hotter months will end split, sealed or not sealed. Tallow, on the other hand, is far more stable and more forgiving. Nonetheless, initial drying in summer will produce defects that can be avoided by starting the process during the cooler months. The secret to both these species and, for that matter, most eucalypts, the slower they dry the better. By the way, neither specie is prone to mould unless stored incorrectly.

Most eucs are prone to surface checking during seasoning...if your sawn product is quarter sawn, kept in a COOL,ventilated shed,end sealed,stacked correctly...it will season o.k......Most species are prone to mould if they a not given adequate ventilation...Tallowwood is definately a species that will quickly go mouldy if not well ventilated in the initial stages of drying...again,nothing wrong with milling during summer,you simply have to make sure that your product is kept cool and out of direct sunlight.Some areas during the winter months are very dry with very low humidity levels,which can also lead to the problem of surface checking...even in timber that is seasoned.Spraying a little water on the packs is an option if you feel the drying process is a little too rapid and causing degrade...

[Luca Gilbear]

Wow, thanks for all the advice. This is such a helpful group. There is a lot more in it than just cutting up some trees hey.
The $140/ metre at the mill is for the raw log measured in the centre. Then finishing the decking after drying for a while is $100/cubic M. Milling my own logs apparently works out to about half the cost of buying the milled timber from the same mill. If I find a good experienced portable mill thats available in a couple of weeks or so I'll compare. Snigging is fine in 7m lengths, and I think I can get transport cheap. The mill is only 15 minutes drive away.

The only shed I could use here is right next to a tallowwood with a huge termite nest, and anything other than red cedar, rosewood and white beech was eaten in no time in that shed. Even the tallowwood and bloodwood posts have been eaten away under the tracks. To get away from the millions of the bastards that live here, I was going to stack in the middle of a paddock, as best as I can, with the strips between, and put tarps over. I have some spare 6m wide hoops from a poly house. I was thinking of putting those over the timber, and the tarp over them to make a decent air space. Then putting termite baits and traps around and hoping for the best. I'll put some old sheets of corrugated iron down on the ground first, or at least builders plastic.

For the end cracking I have been leaving 1m extra on my lengths. Surface checking, well I guess I can just do what i can and deal with it if that happens.
The posts at 6m long are apparently difficult to do 150x150mm unless you start with a massive tree, so I'll do 5x5s and hopefully get them out of an 80cm diameter log.

[rustynail]

I have been cutting hardwood and cedar on the mid north coast of nsw for over 30 years. Mould has never been a major problem if timber is stacked correctly. On the other hand, too fast initial drying both in log form and sawn timber is almost impossible to control and as Blackbutt is so prone to checking it would be better to start the drying in cooler months. Climate conditions are variable across Australia and to generalise can be a mistake. Talk to people in your area who naturally dry timber and find out what they do. Autumn is your friend.

[Bushmiller]

Lucas

Excellent advice from MM and RN. If you decide to go ahead early with the milling and subsequent drying pay particular attention to the stickers and consider reducing then to 12mm thick. However if you do this make sure there is good ventilation (from the wind) and it is not too protected by buildings. Also make sure no direct sunlight strikes the stack.

For example a hay shed (empty) would be perfect. Improvised covers over the stack would suffice.

Surface cracking is not a structural issue, only aesthetic. It is more noticeable if the timber is dressed as opposed to being left sawn.

Regards
Paul

[Sigidi]

Luca to be honest I am very bothered about the $140 per cubic metre for you, that is very very cheap, even though standing hardwood mills can return around 40% of your log in timber - mobile guys will return much more and you get the whole log on your property. if you send your log to a mill with a cut list that is all you will get back from the mill. With a mobile fella you will get all the timber which comes outside of the list you want too.

If they are a good reputable business to deal with and the quote is solid, then go for it - those figures are cheap as chips. I'm not in your area but as an example as a mobile miller I am more than $100 per cubic metre above their price mentioned.

Just to add to the mix, I havent had any issues cutting winter or summer - other than personal comfort. Blackbutt does shrink a lot and fast too if given the 'wrong' circumstances

[two40]

Excuse my ignorance but I'm curious.

How much do you stand to save by doing it this way over buying ready timber?

Seems like a lot of work and a long delay before you can build. Fair enough if you are not in a rush but even so... It also sounds like you run the risk of ending up with less than ideal timber.

[Bushmiller]

Excuse my ignorance but I'm curious.

How much do you stand to save by doing it this way over buying ready timber?

Seems like a lot of work and a long delay before you can build. Fair enough if you are not in a rush but even so... It also sounds like you run the risk of ending up with less than ideal timber.

Two40

I think a general rule of thumb might be that you would end up with timber at around half price, but that is very general. It would depend on what you are cutting. : Building timbers or slabs or furniture grade material.

It is also essential to compare like with like. Compare green hardwood to green hardwood etc.. If you want a seasoned product on your workbench tomorrow you are clearly not going to achieve that with your own logs.

Sometimes the timber you have is not a commercial species or insufficient quantity so the large mills are just not interested. I once had more than twenty spotted gum trees available from my property and the local mill was simply not interested.

Finally on the question of quality, it is important to employ somebody who knows what they are doing, can assess the quality of your logs with the likelihood of producing a good end product and will advise this honestly.

Regards
Paul