Coloured Shellac

[mingus]

It has been mentioned in this thread (also in Neil's book) that shellac can be coloured using universal tints. I'm just wondering if anyone has experience with this?

My questions are:

How much tint do you need? I'm after dark burgandy or navy blue as a solid colour for the back of a guitar. What proprtion tint:shellac should i be looking at?

What colours does the tint come in?...i can prob just go to bunnies to answer that though.

Are there any differences in application?

What is the best grain filler to use? Timber is vic. ash, and i'm after a gloss finish.

Thanks in advance.

[durwood]

I don't think you are going to get the effect you want by tinting the shellac.Tinting means giving it a colour so its like coloured cellophane. you can only add a small amount of colour to do this. Too much colour and you affect the shellac. As the tinted material has some transparency it can be difficult to get an even finish (if you overlap you risk getting a dark spot.)

If you need a solid colour ( i assume you don't want to see the grain of the timber by saying solid colour as normally it would be transparent to see the actual grain) make the timber that colour before you place shellac or any other clear on the wood. Usually the timber is stained to made the colour you want first.

You can add colour to the wood filller also ( get a neutral filler and colour it) but none of that is necessary if you want a solid colour. You would just prime and fill then add the colour to the smooth undercoat.

If you want the grain to be a part of the colour you are achieving Wattyl make wood fillers and would probably be the easiest to obtain in hardware stores but other major manufacturers also have such products. Never put in large amounts of universal tints as they contain no ingredients to allow them to dry. Usually they are very strong so you only have to add a small amount (about 5%) more than that may mess up your finish. Do a test of your mixture before you attack the real job.

I notice you have said its a guitar, nitro cellulose lacquer seems to be the standard finish, you can also tint it but there are solid colours available in this material and if you want a solid colour you would just use Dark blue or burgandy.

Finally both those colours have very poor coverage (they don't block out whats underneath well) even with them as a straight colour its advisable to paint the surface black first. One coat of black will block out the timber then one or two coats of the colour will give you your result. Without the black it could take 10 coats to get the same effect. Thats for whatever finish you put on.

[ubeaut]

Mingus - If you're going to block out the grain then it doesn't matter what filler you use.

To use coloured shellac I would do a base coat of white and sand it really smooth, then apply the coloured shellac over the top. You will need to find your colour first use base colours red + lamp black (not too much black). You can mix up to 30% universal tint with fresh shellac.

I find using the white base gives the finish a better translucence and more depth, but black could also be good as could yellow. It all depends on the final effect you hope to achieve.

Best advice I can offer is to get some scrap and play around with some colours to see what you get. Just make sure to write down what colours you use and in what proportions.

I find the ordinary orange shellac to work the best, like it better than the white shellac. But that;s just me.

Cheers - Neil

[mingus]

Thanks for the info.

NC laquer is the standard for guitars, but i don't have access to spray gear so it isn't really an option for me.

Would it be feasable to achieve the colour using standard paints, then use white shellac over the top to get the gloss level? Also, i'm only after solid colour on the back. The top is fijian mahaog. (This has a more common name, but i can't remember it) which i want to clear coat, so i need the shellac there too.

[ubeaut]

Would it be feasable to achieve the colour using standard paints, then use white shellac over the top to get the gloss level?

Not something I'd be doing.

[mingus]

Thanks for that, i'll have an experiment and see what happens.

[Barry_White]

Not that I am an expert on finishing but as a Patternmaker we used to colour patterns with cement oxides in shellac that give really solid colours.

We used to use Red, Yellow and Black.

[mingus]

thanks barry, while i'm doing test runs, i might just give that a try.

[fanlee]

It has been mentioned in this thread (also in Neil's book) that shellac can be coloured using universal tints. I'm just wondering if anyone has experience with this?

Hi Mingus.

See this post in musical instruments : http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=40883

I am a newbie but achieved this result allbeit marred by a spill which I couldn't patch invisibly.

The timber is myrtle and I used 10% Feast Watson proof tint - Red- in a mixture of 50/50 U Beaut hard shellac and ethanol. I put on lots of thin layers with a pad until I got the depth of colour I was happy with, then sprayed it with nitro cellulose & rubbed it to gloss basically using Durwood's lacquer pulling instructions, then Meguair's No followed by No 9 followed by No7.

It is not perfect but I am very pleased. Apart from the spill, I was conservative in the rub out avoiding rub throughs at all costs.

However the colour is simply SUPERB!!

Also I am about to post another rub out with Durwood's lacquer pulling techniques as the basis & I took this one to the limit. There is not even a suggestion of a pit on the top.

It's not coloured shellac though. It's U Beaut water soluble stain on the timber.

Good luck and enjoy the ride!!

RobSm

[mingus]

To use coloured shellac I would do a base coat of white and sand it really smooth, then apply the coloured shellac over the top. You will need to find your colour first use base colours red + lamp black (not too much black). You can mix up to 30% universal tint with fresh shellac.

Right, sorry to revive a very old thread, but i've finally got up to the stage of finishing my guitar and have some more questions.

1) When you say "do a base coat of white" do you mean to use white oil based paint first, or whit tint in shellac?

2) I went to a paint shop today and asked the guy there about using universal tints for this purpose, and he was suspicious about using a water based tint in the metho based shellac. Why doesn't the water cause problems with curing etc?

3) I then tried an art shop for a second opinion and the peop[le there suggested using dry pigments. Are there any caveats with using this method?

[Sturdee]

I went to a paint shop today and asked the guy there about using universal tints for this purpose, and he was suspicious about using a water based tint in the metho based shellac. Why doesn't the water cause problems with curing etc?

Yet that same paint shop guy will happily use the same tints to colour oil based paints. So why would he be suspicious. In any case if Neil says it is okay to do it you can safely go ahead for he wrote the bible on the subject.

I then tried an art shop for a second opinion and the people there suggested using dry pigments. Are there any caveats with using this method?

I use dry pigments to mix metho based colour stains prior to french polishing. The trick is to make it darker than you wish as the metho in the french polish will lighten the stain. If the colour, after a few layers of polish, is too light you can apply another coat of stain before continuing with your polishing.

Sometimes you may have to do this a number of times with different colours of stain before you get it right. So do it first on a piece of scrap and record the steps you take, so you can repeat it on your masterpiece.


Peter.

[Chris Parks]

I think I have a video somewhere on something like this. Give me a day to find it.

[Sofaman]

I then tried an art shop for a second opinion and the peop[le there suggested using dry pigments. Are there any caveats with using this method?

I use dry pigments in shellac at very high concentrations for graining or colour touch ups as per TAFE training, but there can be some problems:

It can get a bit lumpy. Colour pigments are gritty so there's a danger your finish is uneven.

If you're applying shellac over your desired colour you may notice a difference in colour in the end result

But you can always experiment, right?!!

[Chris Parks]

Mingus, check your email.

[mingus]

Yet that same paint shop guy will happily use the same tints to colour oil based paints. So why would he be suspicious. In any case if Neil says it is okay to do it you can safely go ahead for he wrote the bible on the subject.

Very good point Sturdee, I know neil wrote the book on this stuff (i have a copy myself!) but just wanted to check.

Mingus, check your email.

Recieved, Mini. Thats a lot of info!