Renovation conundrum

[Velophile]

Hi guys, first post here so please bear with me.

I’ve just moved into my new house (new to me anyway, it’s circa 1915, timber, in Melb) & need some building advise.

I have a conflict between things that need fixing/replacing now & what may be rebuilt/renovated in a few years.

I really need to replace the shower. The base is cracked & leaking and the screen door is stuffed. The next issue is the room is lined with some textured sheet () plaster or board. This has been patched (badly) in a few places, looks crappy & catches dust, dirt etc.
I don’t want to reline the whole bathroom & then end up trashing it during a major, rear of house reno in even 5 years. Been there done that on my last house (long story) that I recently sold (due to separation, even longer story!).
<O</O

My main question is; if I’m planning a second story extension to a timber framed house, can I re-enforce the wall now while the lining is removed?

<O</O
An additional complication is lack of access to the outside of the wall. A newer house has been built next door, leaving a tiny (cat size) gap between the houses.

Cheers
Steve

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Welcome to the BB! Hope you survive the mayhem...

It all depends on how soon the renovation's gonna happen, how fixed the renovation plans are and what you're willing to put up with in the meantime.

The shower base... that's a "must fix now" job, as you're probably aware. The lining and shower screen, well, they're basically cosmetic. If the screen is really falling apart then how about just removing it and hanging a curtain rail & shower curtain for the interim? Like I said, it depends on what you'n'SWMBO are willing to put up with.

I'd be inclined to leave relining the walls until you have more concrete plans on the second story. You could reinforce the walls now, adding an extra top plate (ala ribbon plate) for example but if you don't know how & where the 2nd story bearers etc. are gonna go you could still end up needing to redo it. You can, of course, strip & reline the walls with a "cheapish" lining (blue-board?) for the interim which you wouldn't mind scrapping when the time comes. An extra expense, but cosmetics usually are. [shrug]

If you already have the plans and know where what is going, then by all means go ahead and reinforce the wall now! And finish out the bathroom, of course...

Either way, if you're planning on tiling the bathroom I'd definitely wait until the renovations are finished. Sheet boards will flex a bit if there's any "settling" under the extra weight (hopefully not, still it's better to allow for it now) and then you can tile safely, but if it's already tiled, well.. ruined tiles are an expensive way to discover movement.

[Velophile]

Welcome to the BB! Hope you survive the mayhem...

Thanks! I'm on some other forums & this one is tame by comparison.

It all depends on how soon the renovation's gonna happen, how fixed the renovation plans are and what you're willing to put up with in the meantime.

We're still at "back of an envelope" stage.

The shower base... that's a "must fix now" job, as you're probably aware. The lining and shower screen, well, they're basically cosmetic. If the screen is really falling apart then how about just removing it and hanging a curtain rail & shower curtain for the interim? Like I said, it depends on what you'n'SWMBO are willing to put up with.

I'd be inclined to leave relining the walls until you have more concrete plans on the second story. You could reinforce the walls now, adding an extra top plate (ala ribbon plate) for example but if you don't know how & where the 2nd story bearers etc. are gonna go you could still end up needing to redo it. You can, of course, strip & reline the walls with a "cheapish" lining (blue-board?) for the interim which you wouldn't mind scrapping when the time comes. An extra expense, but cosmetics usually are. [shrug]

The other factor is the shower base size. I want at least a 900x900 replacement. The current one's 760 or so, small anyway. That means the screen & lining need replacing too. Oh, the screen is really stuffed, we're already using a curtain due to one the screen doors having fallen off.

If you already have the plans and know where what is going, then by all means go ahead and reinforce the wall now! And finish out the bathroom, of course...

Either way, if you're planning on tiling the bathroom I'd definitely wait until the renovations are finished. Sheet boards will flex a bit if there's any "settling" under the extra weight (hopefully not, still it's better to allow for it now) and then you can tile safely, but if it's already tiled, well.. ruined tiles are an expensive way to discover movement.

I did speak to a builder friend & he suggested finalising my reno plans & permits first. Then everything I do is part of the one project & covered accordingly.

[Trav]

Perhaps you should contact an architect to help here. They can draw up the plans and you can get bits done as you go along. If you don't have a plan you are happy with at the start, you will forever be changing things and will need to change what you have already done.

Trav

[Velophile]

Perhaps you should contact an architect to help here. They can draw up the plans and you can get bits done as you go along. If you don't have a plan you are happy with at the start, you will forever be changing things and will need to change what you have already done.

Trav

It's not the lack of plans that's the problem. It's the sequence & the need to fix one thing that if done properly could mean re-doing some of it later.
Below are current thoughts;<O</O

1. Shower base is cracked and leaking. Shower screen is also cracked & screen door is stuffed. This I want to replace sooner rather than later. The rest of the house I can live with while I dream & scribble renovation ideas. The shower needs doing.
   
2. Before replacing shower lining I should re-line the whole bathroom due to the dodgy old plaster currently there.
   
3. Re-lining the bathroom now is a waste if I need to access the structural wall for later reno. Also will probably damage/crack plaster during re-blocking. Bathrooms cost enough per sq/m without doing them twice.
   
4. Return to point 1 while pricing shower fittings.
   
5. Remind self of points 2 & 3 while wishing I could be out on the bike or in the shed.

[Termite]

Thanks! I'm on some other forums & this one is tame by comparison.

Heh heh heh, another one lulled into a false sense of security.

[ausdesign]

I wouldn't be worried too much about putting a second storey on the existing wall. The hardwood frame will support the upper storey load in all but rare cases. More important will be any point loads needed to be transferred to the footings and by murpheys law these will need to be addressed - not the wall.

[seriph1]

hi

could you please post a couple of pics of the home and offending bathroom - it may help. Also, what suburb is the home in? finally - WELCOME WELCOME WELCOME to the forum - folks here are great and knowledgeable....... friendly too

have fun

[Velophile]

hi

could you please post a couple of pics of the home and offending bathroom - it may help. Also, what suburb is the home in? finally - WELCOME WELCOME WELCOME to the forum - folks here are great and knowledgeable....... friendly too

have fun

I don't know about exposing the horrors of my bathroom to the forum. It could be too much for some. :eek:

The house is in Northcote & a rough plan of attack is forming.
I'm replacing the shower base, wall lining & screen. I'm not re-lining the whole room. I'll just do what I need to install the one-peice lining. There are bound to be some surprises or 'issues' when I rip out the old shower. I'll deal with that as I go. I see a rapid trip to the hardware being unavoidable.

[Velophile]

I wouldn't be worried too much about putting a second storey on the existing wall. The hardwood frame will support the upper storey load in all but rare cases. More important will be any point loads needed to be transferred to the footings and by murpheys law these will need to be addressed - not the wall.

Thanks Peter. I'm unsure if the frame is hardwood or Irish Pine (o'regon!) Should this matter?

The reno plans are now starting with re-blocking. I'll get the stumps re-done with the second storey planned in.

[DavidG]

I know its dumb but surely the best reno is a D8 followed by a nice modern house.
Reno's can so destroy a person and their life.

[ausdesign]

It's not easy to explain the design calculations in a few words, but basically the strength required by the lower storey studs is (in part) determined by the span of the upper floor joists i.e. joists spanning from the bathroom wall to another wall 4 meters away would transfer a load of 2 meters to the wall. A joist spanning 3 meters - 1.5 meters load etc.

Working backwards, a designer would determine the size of the studs, the strength, the spacings & the max. allowable height of the studs that would be required to carry the upper load & see if your frame without altering it would be strong enough.
If your frame was made from hardwood it would have had an original strength rating of F8. Being dried and seasoned after so many years it would possibly rate at about F11 or F17 (stronger)
Oregon would rate at F5 or F7 originally and be around the same - possibly F11.
Other considerations are the size of the top & bottom plates.
If there is roof load directed down to the studs.(through walls etc.

These are a few of the items that need to be determined - I guess thats why we get paid so much !!

[Sturdee]

I wouldn't be worried too much about putting a second storey on the existing wall. The hardwood frame will support the upper storey load in all but rare cases. More important will be any point loads needed to be transferred to the footings and by murpheys law these will need to be addressed - not the wall.

About 30 years ago, when I did a major extension by incorporating a free standing bungalow and building a storey above it, I had the same problem.

The plan was to use the existing frame and concrete slab and build above it. The council had no problems provided that I could supply a structural engeneer's report certifying that the foundations could take the weight.

The engineer, after a thorough inspection, required a new slab laid inside and on top of the existing slab and underpinning of the footings, but the existing timber frame was fine.

As at the time I was working for a builder this was still the cheapest option, amazing what a few beers will accomplish if the boss is already paying for their time , but otherwise I think bulldozing and rebuilding the bungalow would have been cheaper.


Peter.