Is CCA Treated Pine Unsafe?

[echnidna]

I don't think it is.

There doesn't appear to be any scientific evidence to substantiate any safety hazerds.

Its no longer permitted in new public playgrounds in Oz , but I think this is really a politicians kneejerk reaction to misinformation. AND possible insurance premium hikes

Treated Pine doesn't have to be removed from pre-existing public playgrounds, though it is recommended that it be painted.

If it was dangerous it would be prohibited in domestic situations.

Australia & New Zealand Have the same uniform safety standards for all products. NZ Government has publicly stated cca treated pine is safe.

If You think treated pine is unsafe please tell me why

[Bleedin Thumb]

Believe me when I tell you I have done a lot of reading on this being a playground designer.

At first I thought what a load of rot, as a lot of the hyperbole was generated by some hippy dippy organisation down in Victoria that I had never heard of. Also the CSIRO said that the risk from CCA is negligible, also what started the whole thing was a report out of Chile...or somewhere that linked treated pine equipment in playgrounds with cancer in kids. This has now been discredited.

But it has been banned in a lot of Europe and the USA. Not NZ AFAIK.

Now .... I acknowledge that you do get leaching of arsenic in the soil around treated play equipment and if a child ate a handful of undisturbed soil from a distance of not greater than 100mm from a post they probably will get sick.

The way I look at it now is that I'm sick of thinking about it and just get on and specify different timber- namely I use more hardwood which I think is a good thing.

I still specify TP....Tan E but usually for in ground applications.

BTW CCA is not banned, they just forced the manufacturers to change the label on the chemical to say not suitable for timber that is to be used for........

So the responsibility is still on the end user that they don't use the stuff for the wrong application. However most producers are being responsible and stop using it for decking etc but not all.

[rrich]

The arsenic leaching out is a problem. It can contaminate the ground water. (How much and the ultimate damages, I don't know.)

In playground equipment the problem is that children have tendancy to chew on anything. There the arsenic would be leaching directly into the kiddies.

[lbgking]

One of my wholesalers proposed the anti-argument that the arsenic content of 10m3 of treated pine equals 1kg of Prawns.

[RETIRED]

We turn a lot of treated pine. When we started about 15-20 years ago I rang the CSIRO about it.

Their words were that a horse would have to eat a 5' post 6" in diameter a day for the next 15 years to get sick.

If as people say that leaching is such a problem there must be some lousy wine out there as every vineyard has up to 3000 TP posts in it.

[echnidna]

We turn a lot of treated pine. When we started about 15-20 years ago I rang the CSIRO about it.

Their words were that a horse would have to eat a 5' post 6" in diameter a day for the next 15 years to get sick.

If as people say that leaching is such a problem there must be some lousy wine out there as every vineyard has up to 3000 TP posts in it.

That's much the same as I was told 30 years ago.
I was also told you'd get sick from the copper component before arsenic had any affect.

Not only the wine, but almost every dairy fram uses treated pine posts so if it leached out it must contamninate the grass that cows eat.

Shock horror all the Melbourne milk supply is contaminated.

While I really think the fears are truly incorrect,
I suspect there is a notable hostility to it.

Which is rather sad to see a good product asassinated because of a hoax in Brazil a few years ago.

BTW, Canned beer has arsenic added as a food preservative.

[Bleedin Thumb]

A lot of wineries are now replacing the CCA posts. I don't know if it is a quality issue or protecting their image type of thing?

As far as arsenic leaching into the ground water goes ...arsenic is a very common, naturally occuring, water soluble mineral found in all soils - the amount that can leach from a post is almost undetectable once you go beyound 100mm past the post.

I think the main environmental concern is at the processing plants where you have huge vats (auto claves) of the stuff and the perhaps less than stringent environmental practices that were employed when processing the timber product.

[glock40sw]

G'day All.
See my post in the Moose thread..

[astrid]

so who,s willing to chip up a teapotful and drink it,

[glock40sw]

so who,s willing to chip up a teapotful and drink it,

Been there. Done that (sort of).

And I'm still here.

Shee! Talk about the Nanny state. over regulated to the back teeth.

How many kids have you heard dropping dead while playing in the playground from Arsenic poisoning? None? Well, There ya go.
CCA dangerous? my farts do more damage than CCA.

[echnidna]

untreated pine tastes terrible so why drink pine tea?

[BobL]

This CSIRO link appears to be a well researched and documented link.
http://www.ffp.csiro.au/ti-ccafactsheet.asp

RE: One of my wholesalers proposed the anti-argument that the arsenic content of 10m^3 of treated pine equals 1kg of Prawns.
Humm, not quite.
CCA contains around 10kg of arsenic per cubic metre (~500 kg) of timber. That's a ratio of 50:1
Prawns can have up to a few hundred micrograms (0.0002 g) of As per gram of prawns. Thats a ratio of 5,000 to 1.
So CCA contains ~100 times more As per kg than prawns
Or 1kg of prawns is the same as 10g of CCA.
So I make it, if a kid in a playground eats a mouthfull of CCA treated woodchips that the same as eating a BIG feed of prawns.
Someone should check this calc as I am often wrong and get my factors in a twist.

Most people don't realize everytime you eat bottom dwelling seafood (crabs, prawns etc) you ingest quiet a bit of arsenic and other heavy metals as well. Fortunately in the seafood and in CCA the arsenic in a form that you pee out almost immediately and it doesn't affect you. It's not an easy subject to get your head around as you can't just look at the total amount but need to look at the chemical species and how it concentrates in various reserviors etc.

Happy seafood eating!

[Markw]

First up arsenic is a heavy metal and so are copper and chromium to a lesser extent, arsenic is easily retained in the fatty tissue of the body. You can't get rid of it but you can certainly increase the amount at any time. CCA is not IDHL ( immediately dangerous to life or health)

I work in the Electricity industry and every timber pole installed these days is now treated with CCA. We don't wear special moon suits but we do use respirators and gloves when handling or cutting poles as we're aware of the slow buildup of the metal toxins. What we also do is conduct blood tests for those who may be subject to higher than normal contact or work with arsenic trioxide - a termite pesticide.

One of the biggest issues with CCA is diposal - untreated timber poles were always sold to the public for use in wood fuel heaters but the smoke from a burning CCA pole is very toxic as the arsenic has a high flow path into the blood stream via the lungs. Smoke or the ash residue from burnt CCA has a much higher concertration of heavy metals.

[wheelinround]

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~croycons/treated%20pine1.htm
Arsenic is a known human carcinogen and has been linked to nervous system damage and birth defects. According to the National Academy of Sciences, exposure to arsenic causes lung, bladder, and skin cancer in humans, and is suspected as a cause of kidney, prostate, and nasal passage cancer. Numerous studies show that arsenic sticks to children’s hands when they play on CCA treated wood, and can be absorbed through the skin or ingested when they put their hands in their mouths.
It is illegal to burn CCA treated pine as the smoke contains toxic gases that can cause cancer and other medical problems, and under no circumstances must CCA treated timber be burned in a BBQ for cooking food. Disposal in landfill is a huge problem, for now and in the future, due to the leaching potential of not only arsenic, but also the chromium content. There have been reported instances of CCA treated pine sawdust ending up in mulch in the U.S.A. and CCA treated pine chips being coloured red and used in landscaping.

[echnidna]

Show me documented cases of arsenic poisoning from casual contact with cca treated pine.

Why is arsenic used as a preservative in canned beer?