Primary Response

[jimbur]

I'm still stunned at this comment made by a USA congressman, Louie Gohmert reported on the ABC website:


"I wish to God she [slain school principal Dawn Hochsprung] had had an M-4 [assault rifle] in her office, locked up so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out ... and takes him out and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids,"

[rrich]

Emotion, that's all just emotion.

Feelings are very strong. I know that when I first heard, I cried. Even now my tear up when I hear of some of the details.

I think that most Americans feel that we have been cheated because the gunman killed himself. Unfortunately we do not get to extract a pound of flesh.

[jimbur]

Thanks for the response Rich. The attitude towards guns is so different across here in Australia. We have no equivalent of your Second Amendment.
What those families are going through must hurt us all.

[Master Splinter]

Yep. More guns is always a solution to gun crime. Thanks for being such a good example of how that works, USA!

(or if we visit the congressman's world-vision for a moment...teacher goes for the 'school gun', fumbles around to find the right key, opens cabinet, picks up gun, tries to figure out if it's loaded (her last training course on it was five years ago), hopes it is, tries to find safety, hopes weapon is in firing condition now, aims at perpetrator, pulls trigger, gun clicks as the ammo is now 10 years old and is past it's 'bang before' date).

Why not just put a 30-50% levy on ammo sales and use the ongoing revenue to fund better mental health services...oh, I know, then the rural poor wouldn't be able to afford to shoot, and we cant have that!

[artme]

Nothing like having a gun to defend yourself against people with guns!

[Scott]

I just typed a whole heap of emotional stuff about guns but have just deleted it. What can I say? Won't be travelling to the US in the very near future because of this.

[fxst]

Again its the gun that causes the problem?? NO its the fact that unstable people have access to guns. So if they ban guns all will be good and we can live in peace...nope as was the case in China the same day 20 children were injured by a nutjob with a knife...ban them too? what about the number of children killed in motor vehicle accidents? I know ban vehicles too. Using Australia as an example won't be that good when you look at the shootings going on in Sydney and so on by criminal elements ...ahh I know tell them that guns are banned they will hand them in....NOT. Guns like all inanimate things are not items that kill....its people that kill and removing guns knives etc will not stop that as rocks and sticks have been used as well. I think it all comes down to lack of access to mental health help but not even that will stop someone from going on a rampage or killing spree unless someone sees the signs. The mother of the boy in the US had a large number of guns for many years as do many there but she didn't go kill people.
Pete

[Grumpy John]

The news tonight reported that U.S. gunshops were doing record business since the Sandy Hook shootings.

I totalled up the deaths in the list below and came up with 272, that includes the perpetrators who committed suicide.

On Friday morning, 27 people were reportedly shot and killed at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, CT. According to sources, 18 of these casualties were children. This is the second mass shooting in the US this week, after a gunman opened fire in an Oregon shopping mall on Tuesday, killing 2. ABC News reports that there have been 31 school shootings in the US since Columbine in 1999, when 13 people were killed.

The rate of people killed by guns in the US is 19.5 times higher than similar high-income countries in the world. In the last 30 years since 1982, America has mourned at least 61 mass murders. Below is a timeline of mass shootings in the US since the Columbine High massacre:

December 11, 2012. On Tuesday, 22-year-old Jacob Tyler Roberts killed 2 people and himself with a stolen rifle in Clackamas Town Center, Oregon. His motive is unknown.

September 27, 2012. Five were shot to death by 36-year-old Andrew Engeldinger at Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, MN. Three others were wounded. Engeldinger went on a rampage after losing his job, ultimately killing himself.

August 5, 2012. Six Sikh temple members were killed when 40-year-old US Army veteran Wade Michael Page opened fire in a gurdwara in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Four others were injured, and Page killed himself.

July 20, 2012. During the midnight premiere of The Dark Knight Rises in Aurora, CO, 24-year-old James Holmes killed 12 people and wounded 58. Holmes was arrested outside the theater.

May 29, 2012. Ian Stawicki opened fire on Cafe Racer Espresso in Seattle, WA, killing 5 and himself after a citywide manhunt.

April 6, 2012. Jake England, 19, and Alvin Watts, 32, shot 5 black men in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in racially motivated shooting spree. Three died.

April 2, 2012. A former student, 43-year-old One L. Goh killed 7 people at Oikos University, a Korean Christian college in Oakland, CA. The shooting was the sixth-deadliest school massacre in the US and the deadliest attack on a school since the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre.

February 27, 2012. Three students were killed by Thomas “TJ” Lane, another student, in a rampage at Chardon High School in Chardon, OH. Three others were injured.

October 14, 2011. Eight people died in a shooting at Salon Meritage hair salon in Seal Beach, CA. The gunman, 41-year-old Scott Evans Dekraai, killed six women and two men dead, while just one woman survived. It was Orange County’s deadliest mass killing.

September 6, 2011. Eduardo Sencion, 32, entered an IHOP restaurant in Carson City, NV and shot 12 people. Five died, including three National Guard members.

July 7, 2011. Seven people were shot to death when Rodrick Dantzler went on a rampage in Grand Rapids, MI. He killed his ex-girlfriend, her sister, and her sister’s 10-year-old daughter, his ex-wife and their daughter before going on a rampage on the street

January 8, 2011. Former Rep. Gabby Giffords (D-AZ) was shot in the head when 22-year-old Jared Loughner opened fire on an event she was holding at a Safeway market in Tucson, AZ. Six people died, including Arizona District Court Chief Judge John Roll, one of Giffords’ staffers, and a 9-year-old girl. 19 total were shot. Loughner has been sentenced to seven life terms plus 140 years, without parole.

August 3, 2010. Omar S. Thornton, 34, gunned down Hartford Beer Distributor in Manchester, CT after getting caught stealing beer. Nine were killed, including Thornton, and two were injured.

November 5, 2009. Forty-three people were shot by Army psychiatrist Nidal Malik Hasan at the Fort Hood army base in Texas. Hasan reportedly yelled “Allahu Akbar!” before opening fire, killing 13 and wounding 29 others.

April 3, 2009. Jiverly Wong, 41, opened fire at an immigration center in Binghamton, New York before committing suicide. He killed 13 people and wounded 4.

March 29, 2009. Eight people died in a shooting at the Pinelake Health and Rehab nursing home in Carthage, NC. The gunman, 45-year-old Robert Stewart, was targeting his estranged wife who worked at the home and survived. Stewart was sentenced to life in prison.

February 14, 2008. Steven Kazmierczak, 27, opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University, killing 6 and wounding 21. The gunman shot and killed himself before police arrived. It was the fifth-deadliest university shooting in US history.

February 7, 2008. Six people died and two were injured in a shooting spree at the City Hall in Kirkwood, Missouri. The gunman, Charles Lee Thornton, opened fire during a public meeting after being denied construction contracts he believed he deserved. Thornton was killed by police.

December 5, 2007. A 19-year-old boy, Robert Hawkins, shot up a department store in the Westroads Mall in Omaha, NE. Hawkins killed 9 people and wounded 4 before killing himself. The semi-automatic rifle he used was stolen from his stepfather’s house.

April 16, 2007. Virginia Tech became the site of the deadliest school shooting in US history when a student, Seung-Hui Choi, gunned down 56 people. Thirty-two people died in the massacre.

February 12, 2007. In Salt Lake City’s Trolley Square Mall, 5 people were shot to death and 4 others were wounded by 18-year-old gunman Sulejman Talović. One of the victims was a 16-year-old boy.

October 2, 2006. An Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster, PA was gunned down by 32-year-old Charles Carl Roberts, Roberts separated the boys from the girls, binding and shooting the girls. 5 young girls died, while 6 were injured. Roberts committed suicide afterward.

March 25, 2006. Seven died and 2 were injured by 28-year-old Kyle Aaron Huff in a shooting spree through Capitol Hill in Seattle, WA. The massacre was the worst killing in Seattle since 1983.

March 21, 2005. Teenager Jeffrey Weise killed his grandfather and his grandfather’s girlfriend before opening fire on Red Lake Senior High School, killing 9 people on campus and injuring 5. Weise killed himself.

March 12, 2005. A Living Church of God meeting was gunned down by 44-year-old church member Terry Michael Ratzmann at a Sheraton hotel in Brookfield, WI. Ratzmann was thought to have had religious motivations, and killed himself after executing the pastor, the pastor’s 16-year-old son, and 7 others. Four were wounded.

July 8, 2003. Doug Williams, a Lockheed Martin employee, shot up his plant in Meridian, MS in a racially-motivated rampage. He shot 14 people, most of them African American, and killed 7 before killing himself.

December 26, 2000. Edgewater Technology employee Michael “Mucko” McDermott shot and killed seven of his coworkers at the office in Wakefield, MA. McDermott claimed he had “traveled back in time and killed Hitler and the last 6 Nazis.” He was sentenced to 7 consecutive life sentences.

September 15, 1999. Larry Gene Ashbrook opened fire on a Christian rock concert and teen prayer rally at Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, TX. He killed 7 people and wounded 7 others, almost all teenagers. Ashbrook committed suicide.

July 29, 1999. Mark Orrin Barton, 44, murdered his wife and two children with a hammer before shooting up two Atlanta day trading firms. Barton, a day trader, was believed to be motivated by huge monetary losses. He killed 12 including his family and injured 13 before killing himself.

April 20, 1999. In the deadliest high school shooting in US history, teenagers Eric Harris and Dylan Kiebold shot up Columbine High School in Littleton, CO. They killed 13 people and wounded 21 others. They killed themselves after the massacre.

[Grumpy John]

Again its the gun that causes the problem?? NO its the fact that unstable people have access to guns. So if they ban guns all will be good and we can live in peace...nope as was the case in China the same day 20 children were injured by a nutjob with a knife...ban them too? what about the number of children killed in motor vehicle accidents? I know ban vehicles too. Using Australia as an example won't be that good when you look at the shootings going on in Sydney and so on by criminal elements ...ahh I know tell them that guns are banned they will hand them in....NOT. Guns like all inanimate things are not items that kill....its people that kill and removing guns knives etc will not stop that as rocks and sticks have been used as well. I think it all comes down to lack of access to mental health help but not even that will stop someone from going on a rampage or killing spree unless someone sees the signs. The mother of the boy in the US had a large number of guns for many years as do many there but she didn't go kill people.
Pete

"Crazed student kills 3 teachers and 10 students with rocks and then clubs himself to death with a fence paling"

I must have missed that headline.

[FenceFurniture]

Again its the gun that causes the problem?? NO its the fact that unstable people have access to guns. So if they ban guns all will be good and we can live in peace...nope as was the case in China the same day 20 children were injured by a nutjob with a knife...ban them too? what about the number of children killed in motor vehicle accidents? I know ban vehicles too. Using Australia as an example won't be that good when you look at the shootings going on in Sydney and so on by criminal elements ...ahh I know tell them that guns are banned they will hand them in....NOT. Guns like all inanimate things are not items that kill....its people that kill and removing guns knives etc will not stop that as rocks and sticks have been used as well. I think it all comes down to lack of access to mental health help but not even that will stop someone from going on a rampage or killing spree unless someone sees the signs. The mother of the boy in the US had a large number of guns for many years as do many there but she didn't go kill people.
Pete

Pete, yes it's the people that do the killing, but why give them access to weapons that can be used so "effectively"? I can't for the life of me see why the general public needs access to semi & fully automatic weapons of this nature. So where do you draw the line on weaponry? It still takes a human to operate a tank, so should they be available, and if not, why not?

None of the Chinese children were killed (that doesn't mean I dismiss their physical and mental injuries). The shootings going on in Sydney are a) limited in the number of victims in each case and b) the victims appear to be mostly rival gangs etc, rather than innocent unconnected bystanders.

Rich, looks like another tar & feathering opportunity has been missed.

[Master Splinter]

I don't know what you are all going on about - Americans are only 20 times more likely to be killed by a gun than the rest of the developed world. Obviously, what is needed is of course 20 times as many guns, so those people who are going to be killed can shoot back or even shoot first!

[Sebastiaan56]

I dont think that we understand the American pro gun psyche and probably never will. Its born of the self perception of independent rugged men fighting to save their wimmun and lives from the bad guys in black hats. It is coupled with a hatred for all forms of government. When I have dealt with some of these people I have felt like Im in the wild west, literally.

Of course facts are facts and the higher the rate of gun possession the higher the rate of gun violence. As far as I can determine this applies all over the world. To the point that it is people who kill, it is people who kill. But if they didnt have the gun they would have to be a lot braver and work a lot harder to express their anger and kill. Its the same argument that there should be no speed limits, ever. Personal freedom vs the good of the community.

My biggest concern is that NSW is now being run de facto by the gun lobby. Im not sure I can engage in my pastime of walking in National Parks safely any more. It will only be a matter of time before some trigger happy hunter shoots a kid or bushwalker. There are also moves afoot to undo some of John Howards restrictions on the kinds of guns that can be owned. Welcome to the mid east...

[jimbur]

I think Sebastiaan nails it down in so far as something most of us find incomprehensible can be nailed down.
I cannot understand how "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" can sit comfortably with the (to me) excessive interpretation of the Second Amendment. I was having a coffee at a local place this morning and saw a group of kids on their way to practicing their Christmas concert. To view the lives of such children as unfortunate 'collateral damage' in the protection of the individual from tyranny is an alien concept to me.

[Sebastiaan56]

I just got sent this link. Normally I dont go for too much psychologising but this article expresses it well.

Defending masculinity with guns

[Wongo]

“Pull the gun out and kill the bastard” sounds simple doesn’t it? What about hiring Chuck Norris as chief security officer?

These people need to stop watching action movies.