What is going on in Tasmania?

[woodbe]

Doesn't look like much, does it. Bit of a fire. It's taken from Lake Windermere on the Overland track a week or so ago. What you see is the result of a firebomb application to the bush just outside the world heritage area. It's apparently standard practice for preparing native forest for planting in Tassie, and here's how I understand it's carried out:

The site is logged of ‘useful’ timber; Helicopters fly in and ignite the area using a Napalm type of substance that creates a very intense inferno in the area to be cleared. The fire quickly consumes available local oxygen, and there is a large inrush of air from the surrounding area which drives and supports a massive column of smoke and ash. Once the burn is complete, bulldozers move in and push the remnants into windrows. The fire germinates many native plant species which are then eliminated with herbicides. New species of fast-growing pulp-able timber is planted, and Native animals are actively poisoned (carrots laced with 1080) to prevent them from damaging the newly planted trees.

If carbon trading ever gets off the ground, I can’t imagine how this practice could continue. It appalls me that magnificent timber and wildlife is trashed in this fashion. If you search the web, you’ll find that most of the timber taken lands up as woodchip.

While I was away walking the Overland Track, the Federal government announced some plan to spend money preventing de-forestation in third world countries, and the Tasmanian government pushed through a fast-track approval of a new pulp mill that will apparently double the amount of timber chipped in the state.

This all seems terribly hypocritical, and in the curent climate of global warming and general eco-awareness, it's a bit frightening to see such disregard for the land and native animals. Maybe I'm wrong, and this process is a positive, but I'm at a loss to see how...

The smoke filled the sky by dusk, and made for a colourful sunset:



woodbe.

[dazzler]

Sadly tasmania is run by a corporation, not a government, so they can do what they like.


They even spray with helicopters near streams that feed local water supplies.

[Grunt]

Conservation and capitalism are mutually exclusive. As long as there is money to be made and jobs to be had then we will continue to rape the environment.

[Shedhand]

10 years ago Tassie was a black hole of misery. No jobs, bugger all investment, more people leaving than arriving, unemployment at record levels, the highest state taxes in the country and a so-called business-friendly Liberal government.
Today, all the above have been reversed. Tassie is now run by a progressive government that puts jobs and economic strength before a few renewable trees. You had to have been living here 10 years ago to appreciate how much better off we are today. If I have to chose between a future for my grandkids or the life of a browsing vermin such as possum or rabbits I'll chose my grandkids every time. There are far too many people calling themselves experts on Tasmania after a fleeting 2 or 3 week visit. I'm just providing a bit of balance to the tripe that the green movement insists on calling fact when it is really only hysteria generated by desperation to have their claptrap accepted as fact.
Cheers

[journeyman Mick]

Shedhand,
I've never even been to Tasmania and profess to know nothing about its circumstances. Up here, until world heritage listing, timber was one of the major industries and there were sawmills all over the place with some towns dependant almost entirely on the local mill for their local economy. When world heritage listing came into effect it was pretty devastating, financially, for these communities. It's taken twenty-odd years but there's more employment now in eco tourism and related industries than there ever was in timber. The timber industry talks about sustainable yields but from what I've seen this means just felling the not quite so good stuff further down the track.

Again, like I said, I'm not familiar with all the circumstances but it doesn't appear to me that the practices in your neck of the woods are sustainable. If they're not, then what happens to all those people currently employed by the industry when the timber runs out? I'm not a rabid greenie, but I can see where a lot of our practices are getting us and it ain't good.

Case in point: I used to spend a lot of time out on the reef. Spent a lot of time diving and the reefs were just teeming with life. A mate and I decided to go spear fishing one day so went to a reef set aside for this. It was like an underwater wasteland compared to the reef areas where spearing was not allowed. I've never been spearfishing again. In the end, it's important to remember that no matter how important it is for people to have jobs and for communities to have healthy economies it's this earth that sustains us and that we need to look after it. What was it that that indian chief said? Something like "it will only be after the white man has killed all the buffalo and cleared all the forest that he will realise that he cannot eat money"

Yes, I agree, your state government needs to something to build up local economies, but it needs to be something better than just cutting down/digging up/fishing out a resource and sending it overseas, that's stuff that poor, third world colonies did for their masters.

Mick (who's not all that optomistic about the future of this planet )

[felixe]

Here we go again..........another "hysterical" thread about clearfelling/logging/woodchipping in Tasmania.

1080 laced carrots - Isn't 1080 banned, I am sure it is!

Herbicides sprayed to eliminate native seedlings?, woodbe I need you to clearly explain to me how this is done without destroying the surrounding forest which would be needed for the "mother trees" to shelter the new seedlings and how the herbicides don't contaminate the ground and have an effect on the subsequent plantings of trees for your supposed fast -growing pulpable timber trees?

You may know the answers so please share them because at the moment I agree with Shedhand, it sounds like you are another greenie doing this......



A few comments:

The photo looks like a cloud, not smoke! - Although it could be a cloud of "smug" (see tonights Southpark episode) blowing in from over the Strait.

When a controlled burnoff is used as an option, the land parcel is actually cleared before burning! - this ensures most wildlife escapes as there is no remaining habiat to shelter in.

As there are people on the ground during the controlled burn-off it is hardly the raging inferno you describe, how do I know - I worked a few when I was a youngster!!

Most of the wood does not go to chips (such old propaganda!) it is used for a myriad of uses, here's a few:

Veneers.
Timber for wholesale and retail markets i.e. construction.
Particleboard.
Plywood.
Pulp for paper
and woodchips, there are probably more uses but they escape me at this time. For more information, google Auspine and frenchpine, or talk to a few of the Tassie members who sell wood to other members and you will see there is more to logging than "chips".

While fire is destructive, regeneration, regrowth and harvesting of the forests is a sustainable resource important to the economy of Tasmania.
You only need to check local headlines to see the importance of the Gunns mill and the threat of Frenchpine and Auspine closing and the damage that will have on the economy in Northern Tasmania, especially Scottsdale and surrounding areas, to understand the importance of logging in Tasmania.

I just hope this doesn't degenerate into another "hippie Vs redneck" slanging match. Do we need it? No and if it does then please someone


lock it please!

[dazzler]

Geez felix it seems that you are the only one causing a slanging match

Woodbe seemed rather relaxed and lacking in "hippie"talk

Having lived in Tasmania for four years I probably have a little more experience than you so here goes.

Yes it is a fire.

Yes the area is burnt. Not burnt to regenerate but to completely destroy the native species before replanting. These forests are planted, not left to reseed.

Yes the animals are poisoned. They are poisoned to stop them eating the newly planted seedlings. Having travelled all over tassie I have seen the signs advising that poison has been laid in the area. I thought it said 1080 but cant remember exactly. Definately had a skull and cross bones anyway.

There have been complaints that areal spraying with herbicide has been occurring close to boundaries with private farmland. This has been in the print and TV media and has resulted in enquiries and testing of the drinking water around these small towns.

I had a view of the highway from the Huon Valley and watched logtrucks streaming past loaded with logs on the way to Triabunna for export as chips. Not for value adding. Lots and lots and lots of trucks.

If you ever go down for a holiday take a run down the Huon to the Tahune Airwalk. Lovely big stands of trees along the way. But then take the back way out and see the clearfelling that stretches for miles and miles.


Please dont confuse this issue with a responsible sustainable timber industry. It is short term, vote grabbing and money making to the detriment of the future.


I have no idea how to create jobs in Tasmania however THIS type of forest (mis)management is very short term and is at odds with Tasmanias World Heritage, Clean Green and Natural image.

Go for a holiday, youll love it. Just stick to the South West where the trees are.

cheers

dazzler

(Hey sheddie we found something to disagree about other than the footy )

[Shedhand]

Nope. I rest my case. I live here because I love the place. I can afford a nice house close to the city, beaches, the mountain, all the clean air I need and best of all a 100 lifetimes supply of all the beautiful timbers only grown here.
Plenty of jobs, no big city traffic snarls, no termites , no stingers and no National party (just for a bit of controversy that one.
All in all we're a happy mob down here and most of the people who run around hugging the trees have plenty to hug and always will.
End of my contribution (which is much milder than my previous responses to threads like this. Gotta love those 'happy pills' man.. )
Cheers

[Grunt]

I'm just providing a bit of balance to the tripe that the green movement insists on calling fact when it is really only hysteria generated by desperation to have their claptrap accepted as fact.

As opposed to the clap trap that is produced by the forestry industry? Those so called scientific reports that are paid for by the industry. They have as much validity as the scientific reports that the tobacco industry paid for that said that smoking wasn't bad for you.

If I have to chose between a future for my grandkids or the life of a browsing vermin such as possum or rabbits I'll chose my grandkids every time.

The future for your grandkids is so very much bleaker than the Tasmania of 10 years ago you speak of.

The most telling thing for me that says the industry is not sustainable is that it is growing at 7% per year according to the last figures I could find. An annual growth rate of 7% means the production will double every 10 years. That means that in the next 10 years they will have produced more timber products than they EVER have produced before. That is plainly not sustainable.

If you doubt my arithmetic, check out Arithmetic, Population and Energy, this entertaining and scary lecture by Albert Bartlett on youtube. It's in 7 parts and will take about an hour of your time. I can assure you it is not a wasted hour.

[dazzler]

Just forgot one thing.

Can you name any State Govt Department other than Forestry Tasmania that is exempt by law from responding to Freedom of Information requests

Ill shut up now

[Grunt]

The latest figures I could find on the growth of the industry were from 2001 because they are now not available due to 'Commercial in Confidence' and the FOI not being applicable to Forestry Tasmania.

[martrix]

The majority of timber that leaves Tassie is in the form of wood chips for Asian pulp mills, I have seen the massive cargo ships full of them.

I agree with Dazzler in that the state is run by a corporation.

[woodbe]

Here we go again..........another "hysterical" thread about clearfelling/logging/woodchipping in Tasmania.

1080 laced carrots - Isn't 1080 banned, I am sure it is!

Herbicides sprayed to eliminate native seedlings?, woodbe I need you to clearly explain to me how this is done without destroying the surrounding forest ....

Y'know, I was just reporting what I saw and heard. I'm not offering an explanation because I don't have one. On the other hand, I didn't like what I saw, and excuse me for saying so.

Watched Lateline tonight, they were interviewing a bloke in the US. There has been a supreme court action there, and the result is that the Supreme Court has directed the EPA to regulate Carbon Dioxide as a pollutant detrimental to man.

I'm not a tree-hugging greenie, I'm not hysterical, but I'm beginning to think I should be.

You should see the massive Myrtles and King Billy Pines I saw last week. Stunning.

By the way, There's a Tassie Design Centre in Launceston displaying some fabulous furniture work by local woodworkers.

woodbe.

[felixe]

Sorry if it came across that way guys, I am not out for a slanging match, just want to have my say based on "experience" - please don't take it as a slanging match and I will be upfront and apologise to dazzler and woodbe if I came across as offensive.

But.... (here goes!)

Geez felix it seems that you are the only one causing a slanging match

Woodbe seemed rather relaxed and lacking in "hippie"talk
Having lived in Tasmania for four years I probably have a little more experience than you so here goes.

No you haven't I lived there from when I was born until I was 25, and during that time lived in the Huon valley where they log frequently and timber is a resource which keeps the area alive.

Yes the area is burnt. Not burnt to regenerate but to completely destroy the native species before replanting. These forests are planted, not left to reseed.


When I worked for the forestry commission in Tasmania (Then it was still called the forestry commission) I worked on a few burnoffs - It is and was my understanding from working there that fire is used to assist in regenerate the ground / area and to eliminate the waste left over from logging - I know they replant, I did not imply (or mean to ) that it was left to re-seed naturally.

Yes the animals are poisoned. They are poisoned to stop them eating the newly planted seedlings. Having travelled all over tassie I have seen the signs advising that poison has been laid in the area. I thought it said 1080 but cant remember exactly. Definately had a skull and cross bones anyway.

I didn't question the laying of baits, but anyone from Tassie knows that 1080 was and still is a sensitive issue, due to the fact that it remains in the food chain long after the animal which consumed the bait has died. In the past this has led to a drop in the native population of scavengers such as devils. The 1080 issue is frequently dragged out by greenies as a scare tactic and this is why I asked for clarification - I would still like to know am I correct that it is banned?

Also baits are laid for other reasons such as foxes! It is a long bow to draw saying that because you saw signs across Tasmania about baits they were laid for forestry purposes, I assume some would be because of farming.

There have been complaints that areal spraying with herbicide has been occurring close to boundaries with private farmland. This has been in the print and TV media and has resulted in enquiries and testing of the drinking water around these small towns.

And a big problem is that these acres of trees have been planted on farmland, not necessarily reclaimed native forests.
At the moment in Tasmania it is a fact that due to federal tax laws it is advantageous to buy up huge lots of land from farmers and plant trees. Farmers find it more profitable to sell up and move on, the result is a drop in the production of primary industries (agriculture). I still think that de-regulation of the dairy industry in the 90's was a stupid idea, but i digress.

I had a view of the highway from the Huon Valley and watched logtrucks streaming past loaded with logs on the way to Triabunna for export as chips. Not for value adding. Lots and lots and lots of trucks.

Uh huh, and I lived at Glen huon for 8 years on Glen huon road and saw them go by, saw them go by when I lived at Franklin for 2 years and 2 years at Longley (plus the rest of the time in Hobart - gee I hope it gives me some credibility!)
My point is - and it cannot be denied, not all timber goes to Triabunna, there are plenty of mills on the way including in the Huon.
Yes timber does get chipped, but it is a renewable resource and still an integral part of the economy - I agree with Shedhand!

If you ever go down for a holiday take a run down the Huon to the Tahune Airwalk. Lovely big stands of trees along the way. But then take the back way out and see the clearfelling that stretches for miles and miles.

Don't need to - please see above I spent plenty of time living down there, and if I revisit the sites I worked at with the forestry department I would see they have re-grown.
Yes it is ugly, but so is the East Coast from Bicheno to St Mary's/Germantown (I know my way around - see! ) at the moment, go back in 5 years after the fire and see what has re-grown, even without the assistance of re-seeding by man.


Please dont confuse this issue with a responsible sustainable timber industry. It is short term, vote grabbing and money making to the detriment of the future.

At no time did I set out to confuse the issue, but it is irresponsible to take a picture of a cloud in the sky and based on "word of mouth" (unless woodbe would like to clarify he went to the source of the cloud) and start making rash statements about clearfelling and burnoffs!!
I still argue, based on experience of being Tasmanian by birth and having worked for the forestry department, that the timber industry can be sustainable.

I have no idea how to create jobs in Tasmania however THIS type of forest (mis)management is very short term and is at odds with Tasmanias World Heritage, Clean Green and Natural image.

Tasmania is isolated geographically which at the present time hinders it economically, this is unfortunate. I am one of the people Shedhand talks of who left in the 90's due to high unemployment, recession and limited future, one day I will return, at the moment the opportunities in Qld are still better.
Forestry will always be part of the economy. I will agree with you on this point, yes it is currently mismanaged, but that;s just because I am biased and believe Lennon is a crook!

Go for a holiday, youll love it. Just stick to the South West where the trees are.

Don't need to thanks Dazzler, I was back there at christmas like I do every year, I go all over the state, including down past Geeveston and into the Tahune.

cheers

dazzler

(Hey sheddie we found something to disagree about other than the footy )

In summary, Dazzler I am Tasmanian, and also now a canetoad, I don't need to be patronised and spoken to as if I live in an Ivory tower in Qld.

[dazzler]

Apologies all round