Restoration ethics??

[danangles]

At the moment I am endeavouring to restore an old dining room setting which belonged to my wifes grandmother. It would be around 100 years old and consists of 4 chairs and commode. They need complete re-upholstering and reassembly of some joints in some chairs, as the dowels have broken. To keep the pieces authentic should I replace the hessian and horse hair,two large springs and animal glue with modern materials? I know that the chair will look authentic when completed,but will this detract from its resale value if and when they are ever sold?
Cheers Dan

[Antipodes]

Unless it's by a well-known manufacturer where keeping it in its original state might be important (unlikely) the rule of thumb for most antiques (not musical instruments however) is it needs to look like new or close to.

But most serious restorers would also say use all original material where possible and practical. The dowel is easy to replace, re-blocking chairs is comparatively simple with some patience and rubber mallet to gently take them apart, animal glue will be easier to work with and also make it easier for future restorers to not have to pick off impossible to remove modern adhesives.

It's not that difficult to salvage and re-use horsehair (you just shampoo it like hair), replacement hessian and the other fixings are all reasonably available.

I'd say your biggest decision is if it's worth the effort - a lot will depend on how unique or simple the piece is, how much you and yours love the piece (it sounds like there's a strong family connection), etc, etc.

About 100 years old could put it a few places stylistically so would be good to see photos. Art nouveau (aka Federation), Art Deco and later are pretty safe. Anything much earlier than that can be a problem.

I'm not a dealer but I'm a knowledgable punter and I'm noticing and hearing from dealers (in big cities at least) that 19th century furniture or stuff in the manner of (even really nice locally produced cedar furniture) unless it has Biedermeyer-like proto-modernist simplicity, is very difficult to get rid of. People just aren't interested and think it's too busy and heavy for a modern home.

Obviously we're in the middle of big mid-century trend right now but, even expecting that will die down, I think anything pre-Federation will be difficult for a long time.

If you dig the C19 stuff however, it's probably a great time to be buying up resto jobs.

[Grandad-5]

It's not that difficult to salvage and re-use horsehair (you just shampoo it like hair)

And horsehair is another of those traditional materials that actually does a better job and is easier to get a nice result from than the modern replacement. (Coconut fibre)
Look around op-shops or recycling centres for old upholstered pieces that are past their day for a supply.
Cheers
Jim

[Horsecroft88]

Unless it's by a well-known manufacturer where keeping it in its original state might be important (unlikely) the rule of thumb for most antiques (not musical instruments however) is it needs to look like new or close to.

But most serious restorers would also say use all original material where possible and practical. The dowel is easy to replace, re-blocking chairs is comparatively simple with some patience and rubber mallet to gently take them apart, animal glue will be easier to work with and also make it easier for future restorers to not have to pick off impossible to remove modern adhesives.

It's not that difficult to salvage and re-use horsehair (you just shampoo it like hair), replacement hessian and the other fixings are all reasonably available.

I'd say your biggest decision is if it's worth the effort - a lot will depend on how unique or simple the piece is, how much you and yours love the piece (it sounds like there's a strong family connection), etc, etc.

About 100 years old could put it a few places stylistically so would be good to see photos. Art nouveau (aka Federation), Art Deco and later are pretty safe. Anything much earlier than that can be a problem.

I'm not a dealer but I'm a knowledgable punter and I'm noticing and hearing from dealers (in big cities at least) that 19th century furniture or stuff in the manner of (even really nice locally produced cedar furniture) unless it has Biedermeyer-like proto-modernist simplicity, is very difficult to get rid of. People just aren't interested and think it's too busy and heavy for a modern home.

Obviously we're in the middle of big mid-century trend right now but, even expecting that will die down, I think anything pre-Federation will be difficult for a long time.

If you dig the C19 stuff however, it's probably a great time to be buying up resto jobs.

In general I think I too would agree with much of what Antipodes says, especially in context as to how to repair the furniture you have, especially regarding the ethics of either saving the original materials vrs using perhaps more modern alternatives. However, having also been through this process over the years with more antique furniture than I care to think about, I do have a slightly different take on this. My views are based from both practicality and also care about what I am restoring.

While use of materials like horse hair are/were the appropriate material for stuffing, along with cotton wadding, modern replacements such as coconut fibre, while perhaps not quite as good is still pretty reasonable. Most upholstery places will use this along with a range modern foam materials.

Likewise in respect of glues, yes while animal glues were the available material of choice back then when such furniture was made, today there are many excellent and far stronger glues around. I know as I recently repaired a table leg (see my thread on my projects) and I am glad I had this type of glue to work with. But I did also use dowls as they are an integral part of any such joins/repairs.

Where I do remain traditional is in the choice of finish I apply, to date I have pretty much only used shellac and bees wax, to me it looks and feels correct.

Now I can't comment on what is happening on the mainland re the market place, but what I can say is that the antiques trade down here in Tassie is pretty strong, with some very healthy prices being achieved. In terms of antiques, I am talking of pre 1900, with early colonial cedar, huon pine etc commanding high prices and selling very well. Ditto early Georgan furniture, from the UK, and early European furniture also commanding very high prices.

At regular antique auctions, there is also strong interest being shown from the mainland, given the treasure house that Tassie is/was for colonial and victorian furniture, let alone Georgan pieces that were imported back in the day, let alone the container loads that seem to be coming into the State on a regular basis.

[Antipodes]

Just a couple of comments on Horsecroft 88's comment.

* Obviously if the old stuff (thinking particularly the upholstery) is totally shot and beyond salvage then you should absolutely use new material. I think I was making the point that sometimes (and only sometimes) the upholstery might have collapsed but much of what was in it can be recycled - not for any eco reason but because it's cheaper and, you know, you can. Horsehair particularly is extremely easy to recycle - the rest maybe not so much. Apart from that there's not much except for the nails, webbing and springs which I've occasionally managed to fight another day.

* On the animal or fish glue I think the point I was making was that modern glues for the most part are forever. Once they're in place, that's it. If you dribble some out and don't manage to clean it off....it's staying there unless you really go to war. Similarly if you only do an OK job re-blocking or chair or something, that glue is going to guarantee you won't be able to make that OK job much better.

I'm currently staring at a few French art deco chairs which somebody did a not very good job on with some PVA back in the day. The reason I'm still staring at them five years after I bought them is I know the total nightmare it will be to take these chairs apart, not to mention the huge battle I'll have to remove the PVA from the joints before I can think about making the repair better.

Clearly it's not always the case but most of these chairs, if treated properly, survived 50 or more years with these glues to make it through to modern times .

That's not a bad track record - and unless you're very young or have incredible longevity, doing a repair job that will make that piece last another 50 years should do the job for you.....but will also make it easier for some poor b*****d further down the track.

I can live with that.

On prices, I can't comment on other areas except where I've been recently and those tend to be European, US and Oz big cities - and there's obviously a lot more to the collecting world than that.

[mic-d]

I agree with you about glue choice on antique restoration, especially chairs. There is no way I would use anything but hide glue for strength and reversibility/repairability. It is stronger than wood so anything more than that is moot. I use little else now for all my work after my conversion to hide glue, it is just too convenient and has too many positives.

[Horsecroft88]

I don't disagree with you guys re glues, albeit to date I havn't used, or needed to use such glues. It makes sense, especially with items such as chairs etc. Just a really quick question, and maybe you have already advised, but I am blind sometimes , where do you find such glues ??

As to the world of collecting, for sure, it varies across States, let alone countries. Perhaps that part helps explain why there seems to have been a plethora of imports from the UK and Europe of antiques into Aus of late.

[Antipodes]

I gained my comparatively modest restoration skills in Sweden where they use(d) fish glue which, in any real sense, is the same as hide glue....just made out of fish remains.

I've never really looked for hide glue but possibly the sponsors of this site have some.

The fish glue I figured I'd never find here but there's a mob called Australian Luthiers Supplies somewhere in Qld who sell it online. A fairly modest 200ml (which comes in a container you can do applications from) set me back almost $30 plus another $10 or so for postage. Worth it? No idea.....when it's the only thing of this kind I've ever used I don't have much of a comparison.

It's not the sort of thing you want to get in large quantities pre-mixed anyway because I'm guessing it doesn't have a super long shelf life.

[jimbur]

Just my ten cents on hide glue. It makes more sense to glue like to like. If there is hide glue in the pores of the wood why not continue using it?
Cheers,
Jim

[mic-d]

Just my ten cents on hide glue. It makes more sense to glue like to like. If there is hide glue in the pores of the wood why not continue using it?
Cheers,
Jim

That logic is good for hide glue, where new hide glue will bond to old, but it doesn't hold for other modern glues since their dried residues will reject a bond by the fresh stuff.

[jimbur]

That logic is good for hide glue, where new hide glue will bond to old, but it doesn't hold for other modern glues since their dried residues will reject a bond by the fresh stuff.

True
Cheers,
Jim