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8th March 2012, 05:10 PM #1
A woodie with a metalurgy question
What a great forum. I get to learn heaps about my first love of woodworking but I also get to talk to a bunch of people that understand things I know nothing about.
Here we go.
Background: I have cause to regularly cut 4mm gal rod in the form of mesh. It's important for there to be no sharp edges so after cutting with boltcutters I use a 4" angle grinder with a 1mm disc to cut off all the little sharp bits left and then spray with cold gal.
I use a cheapie Trojan 14" boltcutter not because it's cheap but it has a bevel offset to one side so it leaves less protrusion. And...it so happens they work great too.
Image here.Attachment 200746
Next: Some time ago I was Asst Manager at a chicken farm and had the opportunity to work with a 3rd generation farmer. Anyone who has anything to do with farmers will know they have a depth of knowledge about many things that is quite unique. They do jobs in ways that Tradies would frown at, but somehow it always works. There's the right way, the wrong way...and the farmers way.
One of the jobs we did on the farm was to build up the teeth on a large gear that worked under immense load. The boss used an arc welder to build up the worn teeth and told me..."The weld from an arc welder is hardened steel"
Ok...I'd never really thought that through but its possible he's right. The repair worked anyway.
So...that leads me to my question.
If I build up the upper, smaller bevel on my boltcutters with some weld, and then used a handfile to flatten out the top and reshape the bottom bevel, theoretically, the steel SHOULD be hard enough to cut through 4mm mild steel.
Yes? Maybe?
or...I'm oughta my mind? (A possibility of course)
I've looked and looked for what I believe are called "Side Cut" bolt cutters.
Milwaukee make a pair they call side cutters but inquiries prove that they are actually micro bevel.
Knipex don't have one either. But if anyone knows of a pair of true side-cut 14" boltcutters I would be in your debt and I'll just go buy a pair and save all this mucking around.
Thanks for your help in advance.
Cheers
JimBeing happy doesn't mean everything is perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections....
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8th March 2012, 05:16 PM #2Philomath in training
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Jim, what he was referring to were things called "hard-facing electrodes", which because of the composition of the flux and the rod will put a hard layer on the base metal. The application you are thinking of might work, but you would have to shape the deposited metal with an angle grinder as I suspect a file may not be hard enough.
I'd rate the idea as a 'probably'
Michael
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8th March 2012, 05:32 PM #3.
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What about these?
Tridon High Tensile Side Cut 12"Bolt Cutters HITNBC0300
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8th March 2012, 05:37 PM #4GOLD MEMBER
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If you are wanting to do what I think you are wanting to do, then you are basically after a large version of a luthier's fret cutters. These are basically side cutters that have one face ground flat, to there is a bevel on one side, and the other side is flat. These mean you can cut fret wire flush to the fretboard with little or no protrusion that has to be filed away. You can buy them (but they wouldn't be strong enough for you) but a lot of people make them simply by grinding a standard pair so one side is flat. If your bolt cutters weren't all that expensive, then before trying a complicated fix, why not simply try grinding the current ones flat on one side. If it doesn't work then you probably have to buy a new one though.
I am not a metalworking expert either though, so am willing to be shot down in flames by somebody who knows.The other day I described to my daughter how to find something in the garage by saying "It's right near my big saw". A few minutes later she came back to ask: "Do you mean the black one, the green one, or the blue one?".
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8th March 2012, 05:46 PM #5GOLD MEMBER
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Hi Jim,
Are you hoping this new jaw shape will mean you don't need to grind? I'm not so sure about that unless you get some sort of bypass cutter(at that may give you other issues)
Why not just use the grinder and forget the bolt cutters?
If you still what to try your idea, I think I'd just grind the bevel off the side of the jaws you have. You'd only have to grind 6ish mm from the tip so if it doesnt work so well the rest of the jaw will still be ok
Stuart
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8th March 2012, 06:10 PM #6Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections....
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8th March 2012, 06:14 PM #7
Thanks Michael. The rods my farmer boss was using were plain old Satincraft 13 clones.
Your run of the mill general purpose rods.
I guess he was working on the theory that the metal got to cherry red, then cooled.
I've often cleaned up my welds with a file, so I guess that puts paid to the theory that a weld is hardened.
Thanks anyway
JimBeing happy doesn't mean everything is perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections....
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8th March 2012, 06:16 PM #8Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections....
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8th March 2012, 06:25 PM #9
In a nutshell, yes.
I'm probably dreaming, aren't I?
Why not just use the grinder and forget the bolt cutters?
The angle I have to use the grinder at in the middle of the sheet means I basically have to have a new 4" disc. Once it wears down a bit, it won't work. By cutting it off, I can use the disc right down to the hub.
Guess I learnt something from my old farmer boss....I'm a cheapskate.
And, its quicker.
Yeah I know, I could buy a bigger disc grinder but for the following.
I'm aware of the noise I'm making. Cleaning up the stubs is super fast. No complaints from the neighbour so far, but I'd like to keep it that way.
Soonish I'll be starting on some sound proofing.
Thanks Stuart
Cheers
JimBeing happy doesn't mean everything is perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections....
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8th March 2012, 06:44 PM #10GOLD MEMBER
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8th March 2012, 07:10 PM #11
Jim,
I have also seen farmers building up the faces of plough and sheer blades with various rods to face harden the edge and prolong the life of the tool by arc as well as oxy torch.....some even deposit a type of ceramic to a work face....it could be done but rather fiddly trying to end up with a perfect cutting edge you need ....did you consider one of those reciprocating type saws with a suitable blade to match.....they may not be as quick as the grinder but with experience, should do the job you need without as much noise or edge tear......I'g go with a fine tooth blade.......just a suggestion.......Lee
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8th March 2012, 07:42 PM #12
No Lee, I hadn't considered one. I wouldn't have thought it would be any quieter. I don't own one, but I might put a metal cutting blade in my jigsaw as an experiment. Yes, I know that's not what you're suggesting and its not the ideal tool for the job but the noise and cutting ability should be similar. Wouldn't it?
Worth a try.
Anyone.....is there much difference between angle grinders? Noise wise?
I'm thinking the noise is from the disc itself but I may not be correct.
I used to use Floxovit but my local supplier had some Pferds the last time I was there.
Can't see much difference to be honest.
Is a better grinder any quieter? I never used a really good one.
Long term, I HAVE to get some sound proofing up. Just don't have the $$$ right now. Soon though.Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections....
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8th March 2012, 08:10 PM #13
Jim, I found that the ultra thin cutting blades usually run a fraction quiter than the thicker blades on BMS - still noisy though and they don't last as long either - you need ear (and eye) protection even for a small grinder cut wheras the saws I used, don't feel I needed ear protection......have less kick back and can be used in many situations a grinder cannot.....such as cutting to a face or close in where the wheel and the lock nut on a grinder limit you - with a 4" grinder, just under half that for depth so in cutting mesh, a grinder can overlap and catch in the next bit - I know, I've cut reo mesh with a grinder and sometimes it can get ugly with the bigger blades.... definately quicker than a saw, but a saw is a whole lot quieter for me........then you wouldn't use a saw for long mesh cuts anyway - horses for course......others here would be more familar with their metal cutting limitations than me and hopefully steer you correct.............Lee
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8th March 2012, 09:55 PM #14
Sorry Mate....BMS????
I can figure most of the abreviations used here but that ones got me.
JimBeing happy doesn't mean everything is perfect. It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfections....
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8th March 2012, 09:59 PM #15
BMS = Bright Mild Steel.......apologies, should have realised