Restoring a red Cedar chest of drawers.

[oscara]

Hi everyone, I'm new here but if possible I would like some advise on an antique chest of drawers I just purchased. I'm going to strip it right back and give it a varnish finish as the grain is just stunning from what I've stripped back so far. I will need to replace the left hand panels on 3 drawers due to termite damage and want to do it with cedar as that's what I've been told the drawers are. Does anyone know where in Melbourne I can go to get the wood. I was going to get it done professionally but have decide to give it a go myself. Cutting out the Dove tails will test me but I believe the satisfaction of doing it myself is worth at least trying. Does anyone have an idea on how old the drawers are? I'm thinking 1850's but that's just a guess based on one I saw online similar to mine just smaller but same handles and turned legs. Thanks Oscar. 20130721_105451.jpg3.jpg1.jpg2.jpg

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Oscar, you have a really lovely antique chest of drawers there and I am sure it will be a great project to restore to allow you to enjoy it afterwards. I am no expert by any stretch, but have enjoyed collecting, restoring and even sometimes selling antiques so have gained a little knowledge along the way.

In terms of a rough estimate for the age of the chest. In looking through my Carters Antique guides to Australia, let alone what I know about antiques, my best guess would be that it is likely to me say around 1870-1890. I could well be wrong. Perhaps someone else might have better ideas on this.

Next off the photos that show damage to the sides of the drawers are due to borer damage, not termites. Termites attack housing construction timberwork whereas the tell tale small holes are definitely borer. Yes replacing these sections is essential to prevent such damage spreading, especially if the borer is still active. If you shake the drawers and get wood dust coming from them, the borer is likely to be alive. I have never tackled doing a dovetail joint, but with the right tools and some patience I am sure it can be achieved just fine.

In respect of your suggested refinishing, when you say varnish do you mean actually polyeurathane or similar product, because if so can I please respectively suggest that this really is not the best finish product for an antique. Such pieces traditionally would have been finished in shellac and thereafter wax polished. To get the best finish possible and value for your chest this is really how it should be re-finished. But of course it is your project so therefore your choice. Alternatives include potentially a variety of oil based finishes and these too should be fine.

Shellac is not hard to apply, but there are a number of simple techniques to learn if using it. Neil (ubeaut- forum sponsor and moderator has produced a polishers handbook which I believe is excellent in teaching how to polish) similarly there are plenty of youtube clips which go through the process of shellac etc. My very lengthy thread here under the restoration section, Lawry's thread on page 4 (english oak desk restoration), let alone a new thread under the finishing section regarding a non shiny surface for a kauri table by libertine, also provide plenty of help regarding how to mix, apply and polish using shellac and oil. All could be perhaps helpful to you.

When I first looked at the photos and especially the grain, I thought it might not be cedar and perhaps some sort of pine. I agree once polished the grain will look superb. But on closer inspection of the photos, I am actually thinking that it could well be cedar. Once it is stripped and you start polishing this, I am sure it will become clear as to what the timber is. If it is reddish or a dark brown it should be cedar. The insides of the chest should I think clearly tell you what it is made from, as these normally are never polished.

All the best and look forward to seeing the work in progress. Hopefully someone local can assist in the timber you need to replace the borer affected sections.

[burraboy]

It looks like its just the sapwood that is borer affected. You might save material and some dovetail cutting by judicious trimming and glueing to make up a couple of drawer sides from the material you have.

[rod1949]

So what did you pay for it?

[oscara]

Thank you Horseroft88 for such a lengthy reply and Burraboy both your posts are appreciated.
So it looks like I have borer damage not termites, it's so weird the way the damage has happened. They have concentrated on only the left side of the drawers and a few backing panels on the back of the drawers as well as another piece of wood on the base of the drawer. I will take pics later today and post them to show what I mean. There is a lot of wood dust when the drawers are tapped but the previous owner was under the impression it was old damage. I might see if there are any sprays etc that could be used just to make sure the borer if any left don't continue to destroy the wood.
As for finishes I will have a look at lacquer and see if that is an option. Varnish is easy to use but from what I read lacquer will give a better finish but is harder to use as each coat re liquifies the previous coat. I want to give it a clear finish so varnish or lacquer are my options. I thought about shellac but unless I'm wrong that will give it a browner darker finish which I'm trying to avoid. I really am new at this and I'm unfamiliar with almost all aspects of restoration so please forgive me.
Would anybody have any idea on what it might cost to get the three drawers fixed. If it's reasonable I might even just get it done right rather than messing about with it.
I'll take a few more pics on the damage and also on how the drawers are looking so far.

[nrb]

I too think that Burraboy is on the right track to only replace the borer damaged part,it may help to keep it in a more origanal condition.
As to borer in other parts if you can kill any that may be still there and as long as those parts are not critical struture that may be the way to go.
I am currently restoring a art deco kitchen dresser with some borer in a draw and have been flood spraying with surface spray,this has worked for me in the past,I sprayed a couple of times then waited about a week all looks ok.
There have been many post on getting rid of borer,have a seach.

[oscara]

I too think that Burraboy is on the right track to only replace the borer damaged part,it may help to keep it in a more origanal condition.
As to borer in other parts if you can kill any that may be still there and as long as those parts are not critical struture that may be the way to go.
I am currently restoring a art deco kitchen dresser with some borer in a draw and have been flood spraying with surface spray,this has worked for me in the past,I sprayed a couple of times then waited about a week all looks ok.
There have been many post on getting rid of borer,have a seach.

Some good advise there, thanks.

From what I can see the damage isn't extensive to other parts of the draw so I'll go get some spray and give the effected parts a good spray. I will get some quotes and see how much a restorer will charge me to restore the 3 draws.

Rob1949 I negotiated it down to $150 which to me was worth the gamble. I figured it was probably worth $500-700 restored so for $150 I can have a project and if it turns bad the lessons learnt will be worth it.

Here are some pics that shows the borer damage and also what the wood looks like once sanded back. There's a few splits but I will fill those and hopefully they wont be to noticeable.


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[Horsecroft88]

Hi Oscar

You are most welcome, and I am sure plenty of us out here, enjoy seeing such restoration projects come together, so if we help a little with some advice I think that is one of the good things with this forum.

Right to the question of borer, damn I hate borer. It really can do a lot of damage to nice old furniture etc. I would think if you are still getting wood dust, it is most likely still active. Commercially people normally treat borer by dipping in a caustic soda solution. It kills the borer and strips paint off wood. However, it bleaches the timber, makes it furry, damages old animal glued sections, and/or can result in splitting. My experience is that with pines (baltic etc), you can overcome the issue of bleaching, ditto the furriness by careful sanding. Splitting and/or greying of the timber is a real problem for dipping cedar. Basically never dip cedar.

I know there are a range of products out there to treat borer, and sprays may work, fumigation is another method. The thing though is that you need the treatment to penetrate the borer holes to kill the criters. Otherwise they will simply continue to munch away. Cutting out and replacing is probably your only other option, which can be disappointing to have to do, and if not done well can affect the look of a piece. If you have borer damage in the backboards and they are baltic pine lining (regency mould) boards, I would remove and replace. Second hand baltic generally is available, especially from demolition yards etc. I have quite a stock of it, but I am in Tassie. Borer is wierd how it will attack one section but not another, but if it gets into your timberwork and left alone it will end up affecting the entire section of timber.

In terms of the price, that is a great price, especially if cedar or mostly cedar. Yes restored its value will depend on how well it is restored, hence the comments I made against the use of poly/varnish/and I am afraid I would include any sort of laquer in this equation. They are all modern ("plastic") type finishes and to any antique collector renders the value downwards. Hence my suggestion re shellacs or an oil based finish plus wax polishing.

Cedar by its very definition as a timber always should be of either a darkish red or brown colour. Pines on the other hand, apart from say American redwood (which is also a dark red/brown colour), when polished and aged are of a golden/yellowish colour.

Clear finishes (aka modern finishes) do nothing I am afraid to enhance the qualities of timber, despite what some might tell you.

There are a number of types of shellac, orange shellac will normally colour a piece, slightly, but it is both a natural finish and is as I say corrrect for antiques. You also can get blond shellac, which I believe produces a fairly neutral finish, inasmuch as it would hardly introduce any colour.

The round breakfast table is flame cedar, the balloon back is also cedar but note the slight difference in darkeness. The difference is due to the natural colour of the cedar they are made from. The door is baltic pine, ditto the architraves, but the door reveal is dark cedar. The pic of a section of cedar is part of an early large cedar box I am restoring. The picture where the first coat of shellac is starting to be applied, I had previously sanded back the timber using 120, 240 and 400 grade papers. The next photo shows the same section but with about 10 + coats of shellac. It is a particularly dark cedar. The large cedar chest is made from differing grades of cedar (including fiddleback, flame and cross banded). This is what it looked like when I bought it from an antique dealer friend of mine. The small pine, blackwood and cedar cupboard, I also restored.

All the above pieces which I have restored, let alone joinery in my homes have been done with orange shellac; but this suits me.

Perhaps the photos may dispell some concerns you have over shellac making your chest too dark ??

However, as I said in my previous posting its your piece, so totally up to you. I am just trying to be a little helpful.

[oscara]

Thanks Horsecroft88 you have been a big help.
I think you have convinced me about using Shellac as those photos you posted are stunning. I want to do this right and although I'm not planning on selling the chest it's nice to know its value hasn't been affected by my naiveness.
I will go the golden color as I like the results you have achieved with it.
I have a few questions if you don't mind
1 - how did you apply the shellac, paint brush or french polish method.
2 - how much do you think I will need for the chest do you think 1kg of flakes be enough.
3 - is standard meth ok to use to mix with the shellac.

Thanks for your help it's greatly appreciated.

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Oscar, hey mate, if my ideas and/or information is of some help, that is great. But as said I am no expert, just an enthusiastic non-professional restorer. It is a stress reliever from my day job.

As a rule I too am not restoring antiques to sell, though I have sold a few. So yes for me it is all about achieving the best result I can so that I can enjoy it into the future. So I understand where you are at with this. I have been doing this sort of thing now for over 20 years, but I too am still learning.

Ok so to your questions.
1. Application - I use both a brush and a pad (otherwise known as a rubber), depending on both stage of finish, desired outcome and/or where I am working on. What I mean by the last part is that a rubber/pad initially isn't as good as applying a finish as a brush is initially, especially in areas with groves, (ie. like your chest's feet) etc. Rubbers/pads work really best on flat surfaces, which in this instance (ie. sides, top and front faces of the chest should work a treat. However, a brush should be fine for other areas of the chest, such as the drawer slide front faces of the chest frame, and the lower valance area of the chest. In truth I normally apply the first coat all over an item I am working on with a brush and thereafter change over to a rubber/pad for all the flat areas.

The reason why, is that a brush on flat surfaces can leave ridges of shellac as it drys, which then you need to try to either work out, or have to sand out. Neither is ideal. Also with padding on shellac, I always start off with a circular/figure of 8 motion for the first one-two coats but thereafter change over to following the grain of the area I am working on, overlapping by say 30-50% of the previous coat. That way as you apply coats you should build up an even coating.

True French Polishing takes the application of shellac to a higher level, as it involves the use of pumice dust to help cut back as you coat, can also use an application of mineral oil to assist in the application of coats of shellac, plus cutting back with upto 1200-2000 grades paper. It is why when in combination with wax polish you can achieve the intense depth of lustre and ultra shine. Basically it is a process that takes a lot more work than I normally would be prepared to go to, though I do have a cedar dining table which has been subject to this level of finish. Not that I did it though.

In terms of approach, once I have sanded the surface I wish to coat with shellac, I don't normally go beyond 400 grade papers, I would apply say 3-4 coats of shellac (flash drying between coats) and thereafter allowing this to dry properly. I then cut back with 400 grade (following the grain) then apply another 3-4 coats and again cut back before applying another 3-4 coats. Once I am satisfied the colour looks right, and dried hard I cut back using ultra fine 0000 steel wool and wax polish using a decent bees wax polish (Old McDonalds is what I use down here in Tassie), and buff off.

2. Yes, I would suggest that 1kg of orange or possibly blond (dewaxed ??) shellac flake should be sufficient for the chest.

3. Metho, I normally use the stuff you can get from any paint shop/hardware shop. I believe this is 95% metho. I know you can get 100% metho (there is a discussion thread about this over on the finish section of the forum) but if Neil (Ubeaut and moderator) thinks 95% is fine then this is good for me. Its all I have used for all my restoration/finishing work to date. The mix ratio is difficult to describe. What I normally do is pour a sufficient quantity of shellac flake into a container then pour metho over it to properly cover it and allow to dissolve. This normally takes say about 30 mins or a little longer. I then decanter to anther container with an air tight screw lid. I give it a good shake and normally it should be ready for use. The shellac mix should have a viscosity of I would suggest similar to milk, if it is thinner (ie, like water) it just will take more coats to build up to a good finish. Too thick a solution can be problematic in that it might be hard to apply and/or start sticking. The easy solution, dilute with a little more metho.

Be ware, if your workshop is too cold, say below 15 or even worse than 10 degrees C, don't try applying shellac. The reason being as it drys it will go milkly cloudy. Its not terrible but it will mean you need to sand back to get rid of the milky appearance. As a rule it is best to apply shellac around 20C, but above 15 oC should be ok, If it is too hot, it will simply dry too fast. Humidity can also be a problem.

Hope that helps a little. I have found the best way to gain confidence in using shellac is to try out on a scrap piece of timber. It will give you a good idea very quickly how well it works.

[oscara]

Hi Oscar, hey mate, if my ideas and/or information is of some help, that is great. But as said I am no expert, just an enthusiastic non-professional restorer. It is a stress reliever from my day job.

I understand what you mean about stress relief. I'm just doing the sanding at the moment and enjoying it.

Ok so to your questions.
1. Application - I use both a brush and a pad (otherwise known as a rubber), depending on both stage of finish, desired outcome and/or where I am working on. What I mean by the last part is that a rubber/pad initially isn't as good as applying a finish as a brush is initially, especially in areas with groves, (ie. like your chest's feet) etc. Rubbers/pads work really best on flat surfaces, which in this instance (ie. sides, top and front faces of the chest should work a treat. However, a brush should be fine for other areas of the chest, such as the drawer slide front faces of the chest frame, and the lower valance area of the chest. In truth I normally apply the first coat all over an item I am working on with a brush and thereafter change over to a rubber/pad for all the flat areas.

The reason why, is that a brush on flat surfaces can leave ridges of shellac as it drys, which then you need to try to either work out, or have to sand out. Neither is ideal. Also with padding on shellac, I always start off with a circular/figure of 8 motion for the first one-two coats but thereafter change over to following the grain of the area I am working on, overlapping by say 30-50% of the previous coat. That way as you apply coats you should build up an even coating.

Thanks I understand what you are saying and it all makes sense but having never done it before I'm not sure if I can do the chest justice. There's only one way to learn.

True French Polishing takes the application of shellac to a higher level, as it involves the use of pumice dust to help cut back as you coat, can also use an application of mineral oil to assist in the application of coats of shellac, plus cutting back with upto 1200-2000 grades paper. It is why when in combination with wax polish you can achieve the intense depth of lustre and ultra shine. Basically it is a process that takes a lot more work than I normally would be prepared to go to, though I do have a cedar dining table which has been subject to this level of finish. Not that I did it though.

In terms of approach, once I have sanded the surface I wish to coat with shellac, I don't normally go beyond 400 grade papers, I would apply say 3-4 coats of shellac (flash drying between coats) and thereafter allowing this to dry properly. I then cut back with 400 grade (following the grain) then apply another 3-4 coats and again cut back before applying another 3-4 coats. Once I am satisfied the colour looks right, and dried hard I cut back using ultra fine 0000 steel wool and wax polish using a decent bees wax polish (Old McDonalds is what I use down here in Tassie), and buff off.

True french polishing sounds complicated but once mastered the results are stunning. Lucky for me I don't want the extra high gloss so doing it and cutting back with 400 paper will most likely give me the result I'm after. I'm looking at a Satin to semi gloss finish.

2. Yes, I would suggest that 1kg of orange or possibly blond (dewaxed ??) shellac flake should be sufficient for the chest.

Fantastic, I figured with all the coats that 1kg is probably what will be required. I see it's quite affordable so that's a help and what isn't used can be stored for years.

3. Metho, I normally use the stuff you can get from any paint shop/hardware shop.

Fantastic as metho is readily available

Be ware, if your workshop is too cold, say below 15 or even worse than 10 degrees C, don't try applying shellac. The reason being as it drys it will go milkly cloudy. Its not terrible but it will mean you need to sand back to get rid of the milky appearance. As a rule it is best to apply shellac around 20C, but above 15 oC should be ok, If it is too hot, it will simply dry too fast. Humidity can also be a problem.

Looks like the timing to restore this chest is perfect as I probably wont be ready to apply the shellac for a month or so and Spring is just around the corner
with warmer weather. Currently in Melbourne 15c is about average so a little on the cold side.

Hope that helps a little. I have found the best way to gain confidence in using shellac is to try out on a scrap piece of timber. It will give you a good idea very quickly how well it works.

You have been a great help and I agree with you about practicing on a piece of wood.

[oscara]

Well I'm a little sad right now not sure if I have got myself a job that's a lost cause. I have removed the pine boards on the back of the unit and was upset to find they were more damaged than first realised. Some of the panels are really damaged which only became apparent when removed and parts started to crumble off. With the back removed I can now have a real good look at the rest of the chest and see that borer damage is worse than I thought. The cedar looks ok structurally but there are little holes here and there which is fine if they aren't active but how to know? I have given the whole chest a blast of air with my compressor and removed most of the dust/sawdust from the borer holes and will now let the chest sit for a month or so. I don't want to continue working on it if the borer are active and if so will have to decide wherever to treat or just move it on and try again with an easier project.
If borer re active how quickly will it become obvious by letting it sit for a month will the sawdust be minimal making it hard to know if it's just stuff that wasn't removed before or will it be heaps and a real obvious sign they are still there.
I haven't had experience in this before so have no idea on time frame needed before it's obvious wherever they are active or not.

[burraboy]

If you have a big freezer put all the boards in there for a couple of weeks. That will certainly kill any active grubs.

[oscara]

If you have a big freezer put all the boards in there for a couple of weeks. That will certainly kill any active grubs.

I wish, I do have a garage fridge/freezer but it's not big enough. I will leave the chest for a few weeks maybe a month and see if there is any evidence of new damage. I have placed a few strips of masking tape over the most active areas and will look for evidence of new holes. Worse case scenario I will sell it cheap to a restorer who has the expertise to treat it properly and restore it properly.

[Horsecroft88]

What a complete bugger Oscar. It is why I hate borer. It does so much damage if not got onto quickly.

I have an old Huon Pine meatsafe, which I previously restored many years ago and at the time, it seemed to be pretty much fine re borer. But for some reason the buggers have got into the front side panels (baltic) but so far not the rest of the huon frame, as far as I know. Sometime, when I can I need to pull the panels off and replace them. Hopefully all else will be ok.

Sounds like a reasonable plan, re the chest. At least if you were to onsell, anyone else would know what they are getting into. All the best either way with this one.