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Thread: Turn from solid or forge?
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14th July 2014, 03:19 PM #1GOLD MEMBER
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Turn from solid or forge?
My BIL needs 32 of these bolts made for holding the wood spoked wheels of his "insert name of old car here, I cant remember which one he is working on he has two" .
He tells me coach bolts with the shank the same diameter as the thread aren't available and wants to turn them from grade 8 M16 bolts. Now while it would give me an excuse to make a form tool on the Wickman, I "think" it might be easier to forge the square shank and head. But as I've not done any die forging(?) maybe I'm kidding myself. Any thoughts?
Stuart
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14th July 2014, 04:00 PM #2
Good opportunity to try die forging, would it be a two piece die?
Ray
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14th July 2014, 04:55 PM #3GOLD MEMBER
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Hi Ray,
I don't really know lol
I know the shank was held by a two piece dia while the square shank was formed. I assume the head was formed in the same operation.(and even it isnt I wouldnt have the heat control to do it in two stages)
I've no idea what sort of forces are involved I only have a kick press.
I guess there is one way to find out.
Stuart
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14th July 2014, 05:12 PM #4future machinist
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I would say machine from solid at work we had to make a similar set of bolts 4 times due to the first three lots which where forged having cracks. Now it was 4140,and forged in India 12.9 grade.
BETTER TO HAVE TOOLS YOU DON'T NEED THAN TO NEED TOOLS YOU DON'T HAVE
Andre
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14th July 2014, 06:59 PM #5Cba
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This is how a blacksmith forges a hexagonal bolt.
Smide av bult - Forging a bolt - YouTube
Yours would need a second die... like this here:
Kellogg & Sons' Blacksmith Shop: Blacksmith Made Bolts - The Bolt Header Tool
Even if you had anvil and forge handy and are prepared to make the dies.... I would still worry about using the end product for a car wheel, even if it is only a vintage car. There is probably more to it, to hand forge a bolt that does not only look good and origininal, but is also strong enough to be fit for the purpose. There are not many blacksmiths left knowing how to make a good coach bolt. Machining them up from a known steel may be the safer option.
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14th July 2014, 08:06 PM #6.
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What about an over the counter option, a bolt made here (?) or the UK or the States? Smith Bullough - Manufacturer of Special Bolts In Metric and Imperial - BSW, BSF, UNC, UNF - Hot Forged
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14th July 2014, 08:55 PM #7Senior Member
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I would machine it from a bit of 4140. If it was for a non critical applictaiom i would give forging a go. It requires a fair bit of skill to forge things right. It wouldn't be fun if the bolts failed when it was on the road.
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14th July 2014, 11:26 PM #8Senior Member
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The original wheel bolts are very low tech, probably grade 3 by today's standards. Replacements made from 1018 or 1020 will be fine.
It would be tempting to use part of the forging technique shown in the smide av bult video. I'm thinking thread a piece of 3/8"round, forge a lump on the end and then machine the square shank and round head.
Another thought is that in Allora, SE Qld, there is a guy called Keith Wilson who rebuilds old car wooden wheels for a living. He may well have suitable bolts. 07 4666 3209 or 0407 582 553
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15th July 2014, 12:31 AM #9GOLD MEMBER
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Hi Guys,
I hear what you're saying, but, My thinking when something like this. If its turned from solid the weakest part of the bolt will be the thread root............ If forged from a bolt at least I get a get a roll formed thread(which will still "likely" be the weakest point but better).
Hi BT, I had a bit of a google but couldn't find one that was the size I was after,(see below). Though I think some came close I'm not sure exactly how close they need to be. Measuring A/F on the bolt I have in front of me at 9.5mm and the drawing(I assume the size of the square hole in the steel plate that holds it) being 10.3mm...... maybe things don't need to be to close
Hi Bob, If I'm not mistake that is where my bolts will be going(I'll check). I believe Keith Wilson was the man that pointed out to my BIL the "thread dia v shank dia" problem. If that's the case I believe he also said the bolts weren't available. I hadn't thought about forging a lump and machining.
Stuart
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15th July 2014, 02:08 AM #10Senior Member
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Then again, in far less time than it would take to heat and forge a lump on the end of a piece of 3/8", you could have started with a piece of 3/4" or 20mm round and turned the shank down to 3/8". Maybe use a ball turner to make the head?
The original bolts would have had cut threads if the thread and shank are the same diameter, so single pointing and/or die cutting the threads on the replacements isn't going to be a downgrade on the original design. All these bolts do is clamp a pair of plates together, one each side of the spokes where the spokes come together at the hub. As long as the bolts are stronger than the compressive strength of the timber then all is well.
I'm past Allora from time to time if I can be of assistance.
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15th July 2014, 02:41 AM #11GOLD MEMBER
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15th July 2014, 07:33 AM #12SENIOR MEMBER
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15th July 2014, 10:15 AM #13Member
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15th July 2014, 10:51 AM #14Cba
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This French guy makes wooden car wheels, some interesting info:
Artisan Wheelwright - Wooden automobile wheels - Classic car wheels - Restoration & Fabrication - Alain Montpied - France
Do not miss to have a look at the "special creations" tab. There is a wooden wheel for a WW1 Reanault assault tank, as well as a giant 4-row spoke wheelbarrow wheel!!
This American guy too makes new wooden wheels to order:
Calimers Wheel Shop: Wooden Wheels Made for Antique Autos.
This guy has replaced the bolts on his wooden car wheels, lots of pics to better understand the issue:
"Monty" - The 1928 Chevrolet: Wooden Spoke Wheels To Come Apart - 1928 Chevrolet
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15th July 2014, 12:55 PM #15Senior Member
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Stuart,
Peter Jackson at Old Era Services
Old~Era Services
had a batch of hub bolts made, and they were still in stock fairly recently when I was looking for some for 26 and 28 Chevrolets. They were not in his catalogue, which is difficult to follow.
Peter Jackson's bolts are above the rule in the photo, the genuine Chev ones below. Note the heads on his are slightly flatter, but bigger diameter and close to the same depth. If you want the correct dome shaped head for authenticity, rather than making new bolts with the square section under the head from scratch it would probably be quicker and easier to reshape the heads on the Peter Jackson bolts if the 3/8 UNC thread is acceptable. The original threads used in most of the 30 odd wheels I rebuilt used the 3/8 UNC threads. I don't remember the price - they were not particularly cheap , but it would save a lot of time over making 32 new ones from scratch.
Frank.
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