Be very careful.....

[TORB]

I should preface this post by saying that I have read and fully understand the rules of this site. The information contained in this post is factual. At no stage has the supplier disagreed with one thing I have stated in my email exchanges with them. I will also disclose my full name and address to prove that I am genuine, also absolve this site for any defaming action (not that I believe there is any deformation of the supplier as I am just stating the facts.

I post this information as a warning to others about the pitfalls of using eBay, even where the supplier has a good record, and also thinking that PayPal offers blanket protection.

At 12.11pm on 27 September I finalised a sale on eBay for the purchase of a Dewalt Biscuit Jointer. Cost was $365 plus $16.30 freight making a total of $381.30. It was a good price, but the price was not the major reason I bought from this vendor. It was because the listing stated, "Orders received by 4pm would be posted the same day (via Australia Post.)" It was also listed with three units available (in stock.) This was the critical factor as I needed the Jointer urgently and knew that normal delivery time to me from Sydney by Oz Parcel Post to my PO Box is by 9 am the next day.

As the goods were not at the post office the next morning, and I had not received an eBay shipping confirmation, I rang Sydney Tools to find out what was going on.

Here is the resulting flow of correspondence....

Sent Date: 28-Sep-11 10:42:10 AEST
Dear sydney.tools,

I refer to my purchase yesterday. You listing states orders placed prior to 4pm will be sent that day.

This morning I rang to get the tracking number as it was needed urgently. The fellow I spoke to told me it had not been invoiced, but would be invoiced and sent today. I informed him that if that was the case the order was to be cancelled.

He then informed me that the person who actually "did this work" would be in at 12 noon and they would call me back.

Later this morning, I received a call from the same chap who said the order shipped yesterday and would be delivered by AAE tommorow. He also provided a tracking number. I found this 'unusual' as I have had many orders delivered by AAE & its always a next day, not two day delivery.

I rang AAE and quoted the tracking number. AAE advised they had no record of it, and that is probably because it had not been picked up yet.

Therefore, please cancel the order and refund the accordingly. If it is sent, delivery will be refused.

Sent: Wednesday, 28 September 2011 4:29 PM

Good afternoon Ric,

Our apologies for your inconvenience. I will follow up that for you and will organise to refund for you.

Once again, we are terribly sorry for any inconvenience.

Regards,
Angela - sydney.tools

Sent Date: 28-Sep-11 17:23:48 AEST
Dear sydney.tools,

Hi Angela,

Thanks for the response. The guy I was talking with was either deliberately telling me porkie pies, or clearly, doesn't know what he is doing. This is the first time I have dealt with Sydney Tools and needless to say, I was not impressed. However, your cordial response and apology goes a long way to rectifying the damage.

Luckily (for me) I unexpectedly had to go to Narellan this morning so was able to pick up the item from a competitor.

Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2011 10:54 AM

Good Morning Ric,

Unfortunatly your order had been sent Via AAE and the tracking number is xxxxx. I can see from the system the order had been made on 27th sep and your order was delivered to your place on 29th sep morning. The status of your order says 'Delivered and ready for collection at Post Office: MOSS VALE POST SHOP 9-15 CLARENCE ST MOSS VALE 2577'.

just wondering if you are happy to keep this.

Regards,
Angela - sydney.tools

Sent Date: 29-Sep-11 19:05:02 AEST
Dear sydney.tools,

Unbelievable! You guys are completely out of administrative control!!

On the 28th when I rang AAE they had no record of that racking number and said that was probably because it had not been picked up yet. The tracking number log now shows it was picked up from your place at 5.11pm on 28th. That means, as I suspected, and indicated in a previous email, the guy I spoke to was blatantly telling lies about the status of the order.

In addition, it was sent after I had cancelled it both over the phone and in writing. And you even responded to my cancellation email prior to the goods being picked up by AAE.

Obviously you also don't pay any attention to what is communicated in emails either. In my response to you last evening, I said, "Luckily (for me) I unexpectedly had to go to Narellan this morning so was able to pick up the item from a competitor."

In summary;
You failed to ship the goods as per the listing.
Your staff member blatantly lied to me.
Your firm, after having been requested twice to cancel the order failed to do so,
You have been advised that I have purchased the item from a competitor.

So, do you seriously think I would want the item, or indeed ever wish to deal with Sydney Tools again?

Its your problem to get it back.

Please issue a refund immediately or I will post a negative eBay rating.
Please issue a refund immediately or I will post a negative eBay rating.
Sent Date: 29-Sep-11 19:05:02 AEST
Hi Rick

I apologise for this issue and I will be following up promptly and getting back to you.

Thank you and your patience is very much appreciated.

Kind regards

Matthew
Sydney Tools Pty Ltd
Customer Service Supervisor

After having heard nothing, and considering that in my experience, Sydney Tools failed to act on anything requested, I subsequently raised a Dispute on PayPal. As that was ignored by Sydney Tools I then escalated that dispute to a Claim.


As I had supplied the emails flow to PayPal, I was quite surprised to get a knock back for a refund from them. It appears from what they stated in their email, that as long as the seller can provide 'proof of shipment', (even if the goods are not received) then a refund will not be issued by them. So, the buyer protection may not be as good as most people think.

Very early on Tuesday morning (8 Nov) I sent an email to Jason at Sydney Tools, (the designated PayPal contact for PayPal). It stated that they knew the facts behind the case and had till the close of business on Thursday 10th to process a full refund or I would be taking out a summons to recover the money on Friday 11th.



The email flow continues.....


Sent: Tuesday, 8 November 2011 9:16 AM

Good Morning Rick

We have received your email regarding the refund for the Dewalt Biscuit Machine purchased on September 27 2011.

We shipped on 28 September via overnight delivery and provided tracking number xxxxxx which delivered and awaiting collection from Moss Vale post shop on 29 September.

We have now received the item back to our store and we are more than happy to provide you with a refund of $365 for the item, less the $16.30 charged for delivery.

Can you please confirm if you are happy with this and we will arrange this refund for you immediately.

Thank you very much for your time and I look forward to hearing back from you.

Kind regards

Matty

My response that morning stated....

Hi Matty,

Your calculations in relation to freight are incorrect, but that’s not surprising as Sydney Tools have failed to do anything correctly in relation to their dealings with me.

I would be satisfied if the refund included freight. As I have stated numerous times, the order had been cancelled, your staff lied about the status of the order, and then sent the goods AFTER the order had been cancelled both verbally and in writing. You have also had over a month since the goods were returned to you, and despite written assurances that a refund would be processed, it has not been done.

The only reason a freight charge was incurred was because of your company’s failure to cancel the order, and I refuse to pay for your inefficiency. The total I paid including freight was $381.30 and that is the amount I expect to have refunded. This whole thing is now a matter of principle, and unless I receive a full refund, including freight, I will take legal action as outlined in my previous email without further notice.

End of the email flow.

I received no response, so I guess they are happy for me to take out a summons, which they will then ever have to defend, or pay up, including the cost of the summons.

Prior to posting this, I just had a look at the neutral and negative ratings for Sydney Tools on eBay. Almost all of the recent ones complain of poor communication and or delivery times. It is also interesting to note that their negative and neutral ratings have gone from 2.12% over the last six months, to 3.85% in the last month. Those numbers may look low, but in reality it is an increase of 81%, so something must be happening there.

One would hope that their in-store service was better than their internet service.

OK, now please wait whilst I put on my flame-proof underwear, as I am bound to cop flack and have people say its an over-reaction. I will let those posts go and not respond to them as I am not looking for a fight.

However,in my opinion retailers who don't keep their commitments, blatantly lie to their customers and provide shoddy service should be held accountable. Keeping them accountable is the only thing that will stop the poor behaviour. Its easier to put up with poor service and do nothing, but that will not stop the problem.


Ric Einstein
PO Box 455
Moss Vale NSW 2577.

[Tools]

I have only dealt with them once when I bought a husky demo saw and had it shipped to Melbourne.This was a direct sale, not through ebay. I found the service to be excellent,the saw arrived promptly and i have no complaints.
Tools

[ClintO]

I can understand your frustration but if I needed something that urgently I wouldnt be buying it off eBay.

[stevemc32]

I had a similar experience over 12 months ago ordering direct from their website.

[TORB]

I can understand your frustration but if I needed something that urgently I wouldnt be buying it off eBay.

That is a more than reasonable point and normally I would agree totally, but as this was Sydney Tools, and they had five bricks and mortar stores in Sydney, I figured that they would probably be reliable and true to their promises.

[billyt]

You're going to take legal action over $16 for freight??

[TORB]

You're going to take legal action over $16 for freight??

Due to Sydney Tools inability to actually calculate a simple number, they think it is $32.60.

Its not the dollar amount. Its the principle. Unless people/retailers are held accountable, their bad behaviour will continue.

Service in Oz is getting worse and worse. Why? Because consumers put up with it and let the vendors get away with it. But not this black duck. I will not put up with it in any shape or form and will take what ever steps necessary to try and stop it.

[Scribbly Gum]

I would like to say a few words about my own experiences with Sydney Tools.
I have bought two items from them over a period of several years. I have phoned them for advice, and sent emails and received courteous and prompt replies.
One item was for myself and the other was a gift for my son to be couriered to his address.
Now, none of these were life-threateningly urgent, but the present had to be there in time for a birthday.
I have had nothing but co-operation and excellent service from them, and I wouldn't hesitate to use them again.
Sometimes mistakes happen, or oversights occur, even in the best run businesses.
While I am sorry to hear of your troubles, I don't think that this experience is indicative of the service offered by the store.
Good luck with the resolution of your problem.
SG

[Scott]

I have a principle when buying stuff from anywhere. One bad transaction is forgiven and feedback is given directly to the vendor. Second bad transaction then I don't shop there again. Feedback is also given to the vendor. Each time I weigh up the excuse given to me as there maybe some mitigating circumstances. There is one thing though. In today's day and age too many people rely on email as a way to communicate which saddens me greatly. Things can be misconstrued or misunderstood. Talking is golden.

[Scott]

I must add that I never make my grief public unless the circumstances are dire and all attempts at communication and settlement have been exhausted (unless I'm dealing with Telstra!)

[munruben]

Looking at the correspondence between yourself and the company involved. I dont think you can condemn them for their lack of communication. It appears they did in fact respond professionally, cordially and speedily. The attitude of your own correspondence leaves a lot to be desired. I dont think it is necessary to insult continually staff members of any company or the company itself. This certainly doesn't inspire a reasonable response.

You are not dealing with a single person business and to expect everyone to jump at your command with that sort of an attitude is expecting a bit much.
In any large organisation it is not always possible to locate or track an item immediately and maybe the person you originally spoke to was not lying, as you claim, but telling you something he believed to be true at the time and in good faith.

I really do believe you were being unreasonable and almost childish in demanding a refund because the item wasn't delivered within the 24 hour period you expected.
We would all like to have a perfect world and have things our own way but fortunately we are all human at the end of the day mistakes and delays are encountered.

If you really believe a large company would bow to your demands and surrender to your threat to carry out legal action over a measly few dollars, don't kid yourself, there is an old saying, "You can't fight city hall" If they do make a full refund it will be purely a gesture of good will and not because of your threats.

In future I would suggest you buy over the counter from a local store where you can take immediate delivery of the item.

The only disturbing factor I find here, according to you, is that if the item is dispatched, you are not covered for a refund by PayPal

I have had items sent in an overnight bag from here (Brisbane) to Canberra and has taken 3 days to be delivered and the only compensation you get from Australia Post is to replace the overnight bag free.

[nrb]

You must agree that talking is the way to go BUT quite often what people say is not what people hear.
Torb is correct to put his dealings in writing, that way it is on the record for all to see and reach a settlement on fact, not on what may or may not have been said.

[Harry72]

"In any large organisation it is not always possible to locate or track an item immediately"

BS, its why we have computers no excuses...

[TORB]

There are a few comments you have made that I can not let pass without a response.

You are not dealing with a single person business and to expect everyone to jump at your command with that sort of an attitude is expecting a bit much.

I don't expect them to jump at my command, just do what they say they are going to do. They failed at that both comprehensively.

In any large organisation it is not always possible to locate or track an item immediately and maybe the person you originally spoke to was not lying, as you claim, but telling you something he believed to be true at the time and in good faith.

I don't think that Sydney Tools qualifies as a large organisation. A medium sized on possibly. Any organisation of that size in today's computer assisted environment that can't track an item is poorly run.

If you really believe a large company would bow to your demands and surrender to your threat to carry out legal action over a measly few dollars, don't kid yourself, there is an old saying, "You can't fight city hall" If they do make a full refund it will be purely a gesture of good will and not because of your threats.

That's exactly what I am going to do. They breached the contractual terms and conditions of sale which, under the Trade Practices act, entitles me to cancel the deal and legally requires them to make a full refund.

They have had about six weeks to issue a refund of their own accord and despite having stated they would do so, have failed to live up to their commitment, until i threaten them with legal action. Even then, they got the amount wrong and wanted to charge me twice the real freight cost.

In all seriousness munruben, please tell me why I should accept letting them charge me $32.60 because they dropped the ball. Because that's is what this boils down to.

[shedman]

I have read this thread with interest. I am a past customer of Sydney tools and have had a good experience of dealing with them. However, companies should not make promises they are unable to keep. It seems to me that you did all that can be expected of you in that when the item did not arrive in accordance with the contractual terms you informed them before the item was dispatched. I find it hard to believe that this company would risk the negative response over the cost of the freight.

I wonder if in fact their maths is not incorrect because they are trying to recover the return postage as well.

I would suggest that refunds for items not delivered on time are a cost of doing business on line.

I do not think you are being unreasonable but am not sure if your decision to go to law is altogether a good "commercial" decision for you. Again however I have to agree that if we all say its not worth the effort then service levels will deteriorate. I think it a great shame that many of us are so accustomed to organisations making promises and then not keeping them that we feel you are over-reacting. Good luck