2 Pac Modern Day Moral Dilemma

[gthome]

Hi All

I have been inspired by some of the finishes being achieved by WW in this site and would like to try to acheive them myself. I have spent heaps of time reading many of the posts and am left with the following dilemma and/or query.

Issue: I want to spray kitchen doors / sides with 2 pac.

Assuming that;

a) I have appropriate spray mask
b) I DO NOT not have a spray booth
c) I live on reasonable size block in the burbs
d) I can rig shed to make it reasonably dust free

Is it OK to spray 2 pac in ones back yard shed. Specifically, does this pose any issue re neighbor's that live within 50 meters given that isocyanate seems to be quite nasty.

Surely I am not the only one to grapple with this modern morale dilemma ?

[Daddles]

I painted me boat on the back lawn - two pack poly. Not only are the noisy beggars still alive but they're madder than ever ... hang on, maybe I shouldn't have ...

I don't think you've got a problem

Richard

[Master Splinter]

It depends.

Are you or your neighbours sensitive to isocyanates? If you are, and you dont know about it, you could find out about it the next day when you wake up dead.

There's at least one government health site with a piece on "Preventing asthma and death from isocyanates".

Or you might just get flu like symptoms that last for months and months. 2 pack paints are the largest cause of occupational asthma (source).

And another. And one more. That covers the US and the UK .

Here's a quote from the Brindabella Motor Sport Club forum

"I've painted before with Isocyanate based 2pac. Once I used a cheap face mask instead of borrowing a breathing app from a mate. Should have seen the look on my face when I started passing blood the next morning. Strange pains and aches for weeks after that. Never again."

The recomendation is a full-face positive pressure airline respirator in a spray booth.

The 'toxic' level for isocyanate exposure is below the level where you can smell the stuff, so you don't even know you are breathing it in.

[gthome]

MasterSplinter

Thanks for that. I guess deep down I knew most of that which is why I put my query into the forum. I keep viewing everyones finishing results and cannot believe that they all have booths / air assisted breathing apparatuses and am wondering how they do it ?

I am probably jealous I guess that I will not be able to achieve the finish that I am looking for.

Cheers

GT

[journeyman Mick]

It depends.

Are you or your neighbours sensitive to isocyanates? If you are, and you dont know about it, you could find out about it the next day when you wake up dead. ............................

That's the funniest thing I've read today Hope it was intentional

Mick

[Master Splinter]

You won't really get the full benefits of 2 pack (I'm assuming automotive 2 pack here) without a spray booth and baking oven, anyway. You'll still end up sanding insect legs out of the paint (for some reason insects seem to be attracted to fresh paint) no matter what you use.

The primary benefit of 2 pack is that it gives a high gloss off the gun (assuming you know how to spray in the first place) and its tougher and more durable.

It's not an easier to apply coating than acrylic or other enamels - it's something that works better in a production setting; it can be processed faster, that's all.

Remember that 'tougher and more durable' relate to all day sun exposure, rain, hail, industrial polution, bird poo and all that. Unless you have a really unusual kitchen, your cupboards aren't going to get that sort of treatment. You'll be sick of the colour long before the paint becomes unserviceable.

A quick dry enamel or an acrylic lacquer will still give a good finish - typically a quick buff with polishing compound will bring up a high gloss...and unless you have had experience with spraypainting, you'll need to do that with your 2 pack as well.

K&H and HiCem both make an iso-free 2 pack, but I haven't tried them yet.

I've had good experiences using quick dry enamel - but 90% of the success is in how well you prepare the surface.

[MikeK]

Alternatively, get someone in the trade to spray it for you (there are plenty out there). I'm buildig some kitchen cupboards and that's what I'm going to do.

Regards,
Mike.

[gthome]

Ok

Have now given up on 2 packs containing isocyanates. I have done a bit of research and have identified a product called Acrathane. It is described by its makers as a 2 pack high gloss catalyzed acrylic, easy to use, hard wearing and isocyanates free. This seems to tick all of my boxes

My question: Has anyone used this product in a kitchen / bathroom cabinet environment and what were the results like ?

[Pulse]

I've used Mirotone Acid Catalysed coating called Mirobild for my kitchen, Great finish for a backyard job. Try the web.

Cheers
Pulse

[Chris Parks]

I have been led to believe that another large problem with 2 pack is the stuff is absorbed through the skin and eyes. My mate who teaches spray painting absoulutely refuses to use it under any circumstances.

[MurrayD99]

Ok

Have now given up on 2 packs containing isocyanates.

That is the conclusion I came to also... The data sheets gave me the heebie jeebies. However, I'm told 2-pack is the only gin-proof surface, if that is an issue.

[simso]

It depends.

Are you or your neighbours sensitive to isocyanates? If you are, and you dont know about it, you could find out about it the next day when you wake up dead.
.

Jesus mate what a scare monger you are, this is the problem with un-educated people quoting lack of knowledge. There is one recorded death from the use of 2 pack poly paint in the last 40 years, and that case is well documented. Professional painter after 20 years of spraying this stuff not wearing a face mask of any type contracted painters asthma. He was advised not to paint and to give it away from his doctor and he continued to paint for an additional 5 years before he had a severe case of asthma which resulted in his death. Get your facts right before you start quoting scare monger stuff. You can contract an accute sensitivity to the product but thats like everything else including "peanuts". That being said if you use common sense when painting wear a respirator with an organic filter, you wont have any severe issues. Its like saying dont use drills because people can kill themselves with it ect. Isocyanates are dangerous especially for fibreglassers and foam manufacturers as there are high levels used to cure the products. Yes your body does absorb through the eyes and the skin but common sense prevails. Go to a spray painting shop and have a look around, there are numerous surveys done around the world and one thing they found common was that among all the people in a workshop thast were tested the painter had the least concentration within his body, thats because he uses common sense.
Everyone knows radiation is bad for you, chenobyl xray machines ect, so should we never venture outside into the sun because where going to be exposed to radiation from the sun. Stop the scare tactics if you dont know what your talking about
Steve

[Harry72]

True words, the risk is there but proper precautions make it safe... read just about any safety data sheet and it will scare you off any product

[durwood]

If you own a motor vehicle and it gets damaged today its a 99% chance it will be repaired with 2 pack urethane enamel. Its the trade standard and better than the previous used acrylic lacquer.


If a paint is enamel it means you will get a gloss off the gun, so its sprayed on wet and glossy as is normal air dry enamel ( house hold enamel) but as you want a gloss surface you have to spray it correctly or you mess the end result. So as has been mentioned you need to know how to spray properly and use the correct gun with paint thinned correctly.

Good repaireres have booths and proper air fed hoods but a good proportion of smaller shops don't have any where near the maximum equipment.

If you use a good quality mask with filters designed for the paint and proper clothing (long sleeeved overalls) and don't spray in an enclosed area ( in otherwords have ventilation) you won't have a problem.

The trade painters often paint in shorts and thongs, even though they are not supposed to and seem to get away with it. Stupid practice but when you are young you think you are invincible.

The dangers of 2 pack are there, but you would have to be extremely sensitive to the chemical and then dose yourself greatly to get a reaction. People who are likely to turn ashmatic would be advised to be careful or avoid it all together.

I would dispute master splinters statement that it is not as easy to apply as lacquer or enamel, It is not only easy will you do the job faster you and will get a better result than using the other two paints.

The advantage of 2 pack is

*It sets up hard and can not be softened with solvent

* It doesnt need to be rubbed back and polished. It dries shinier than paint that is polished ( you would have fine marks from the compound, polish or the rag which wiped it) BUT if you spray it badly it can be polished to a shine just as good as any other paint

It can be repaired ( you can paint a small area on a large area) invisibly.
Normal enamel can't be compounded or repaired anywhere as easily ( you have to do whole panels. Acrylic lacquer can be repaired.

*Its the preferred paint on motor vehicles as it equals baked enamel in performance (no others do)

*Its able to be forced dry by heating which cuts the drying time down to minutes instead of hours. You can also speed up the drying by using a hardener which reduces the drying time even further. In calm conditions you can avoid problems with contaminations if you have bugs then you do have a problem.

MIni, if your friend teaches spray painting his students use 2 pack 90% of the time in their course, so even though he might not actually use it its being used at the tech college every day. There hasn't been a student lost (Killed by it) since its introduction to the industry over 30 years ago. Though occasionally so get a reaction( usually because of miss use.)

Finally there are numerous documented cases of death from using this paint. The current laws governing its use in NSW came about from two cases at the Nowra RAAF base in the early 1980's when painters in the airforce died when using 2 pack on aircarft. It made the front page of the Telegraph when the case came to the courts. My boss also died from its use ( the government would not initially allow purchase of suitable masks for students or teachers, but they did when his widow took the to court.


You can find numerous other cases, usually its found the correct proceedures have not been followed. Often its because the painter has not used a mask or has locked himself in a workshop while using or waiting for the paint to dry without ventilation. If it wasn't possible to use it reasonably easily it wouldn't be on the market.

[Toolin Around]

If you don't get the surface absolutely perfect 2 pac looks like crap and attempting that in a back yard shed would be next to impossible. The guy that does our stuff has a very expensive heated down draft spray booth and still doesn't always get it right. I'm not much into that sort of finishing but I think you need the place to be heated for 2 pac don't you.