Bad Tool Reports Warning Rant Ahead

[wheelinround]

Bad Tool Reports and the Internet


The cyberspace version of the one bad apple theory


I understand this is the man's bread and butter here is my reply in an e-mail to him.

I also understand that Vendors have to make a living but stepping in to stop a thread is hiding the facts Get onto the manufacturer they are he ones giving the product the bad name not the one using the product.

For years public buyers & consumers alike have been bombarded with crap by salesmen and media/writers and wonderful products all staged, they are given the best to present and trial. How often have you ever heard or read or seen demonstrations where products fail during testing? How often have you yourself been honest in your opinion of a quality of a product??.

These reviewer's get these machine free for short periods of time not a life time of use, their income depends on a good review, their family depends on the income of a good and well paid review!!!

How many families have been robbed of $$$$$$$ by these reviews when trouble starts?? All bought and based on a review.

One fellow here in Australia during the late 70's bagged out a crap built car, he never was able to continue in his chosen field as a Motor writer they hounded him to ridicule. They tried sueing him but that failed as it was proven everything he said was true.
Since that time no auto reviewer in Australia has had the guts to stand up and say what they truely think about any product/auto etc.

Since that time even from the USA I have never seen one review writer/media person put a product through its paces completely and be totally honest. That's not what they get paid for its to praise the product to sell the product on behalf of the manufacturer or importer.

If one product is faulty, to cause danger or injury or heaven forbid a death should we not also sue those who wrote and praised the product's for their part in miss-leading the general public not completely informing them of possible pitfalls, dangers etc.

Recently on a number of there have been many who have written about faulty products, to which manufactures have still not responded to personal e-mails (I am one such person). I myself have had two well known and branded products world renown brand names Jet & Nova which I had to push to get fixed or replaced due to poor quality of Manufacture and in the case of the Jet Mini VS lathe dangerous to the point of possible injury later to find I wasn't the only one I believe since that time Jet have had to make some changes. Many on the same forum have also found Jet smaller lathes not in alignment between head and tailstocks causing many problems for pen makers.

One thing I find reviewers lie about is where a product is actually manufactured often being produced in Asian factories re-stamped as Made In what ever country they are being sold in.

I hope your heart is free from a heavy weight of situations that have and could cause death or disablement or financial loss because of reviews you yourself have written in the past and the future.

Ray

[jmk89]

Ray

As usual I find that what i think is likely to be the case lies somewhere in between the extremes.

Although it is true that there are examples of 'reviewers' who are little more than paid advertisers, they are relatively rare, and usually they give themselves away by some of their purported 'reviews', there are also reviewers who are honest to the point of being rude. Remember Leo Schofield and his review of the rotten lobster that he got at a restaurant.

In most cases, I think media reviewers tend to be somewhat 'self-editing' in their reviews and tend to over-blow the positives and understate the negatives. If you allow for that, I find most reviews can be interpreted to give a fair idea of what the reviewer actually thinks. I agree that the reviews if read in a striaghtforward way are unnecessarily glowing, but the negatives are usually there, just downplayed. One 'remedy' is when the review is a comparison between like tools - then you can see what is considered important for the reviewer and get a better grip of the features and strengths and weaknesses of the tool. When they say all the tools compared are great, you know what kind of pillock the reviewer is!

Internet reviews by actual owners can be a useful antidote, but they do tend to be somewhat unbalanced, reflecting the individual's perspective of the tool as they used it. They do tend to be negative, but nothing can beat actual experrience of real people. You just have to read them allowing for that bias.

So I do my research by to try to narrow down to the few tools that I might want to look at and then actually look at those three or four. No review ever beats going over the tool in person.

[Woodwould]

Although it is true that there are examples of 'reviewers' who are little more than paid advertisers, they are relatively rare...

I don't agree; they proliferate on every forum and in every aspect of life these days. I haven't read an honest in-depth review (by a 'reviewer') for a very long time. By obligation, they must either write a full favourable review to conciliate their paymasters, or else write a less than complete review touching only on the positives. So often one reads short trifling reviews, so read into that what you may!

How long do you think the likes of Triton, LN or LV would keep sending their products out for review if they didn't receive adulatory prose in return? In most cases I believe the perceived kudos of being a 'reviewer' is more attractive to some reviewers than the truth.

The popular video reviews (certainly in Australia) are worse than rubbish and usually only serve to highlight the reviewer's total lack of preparation and product knowledge.

In my opinion, the most truthful (if not the most eloquent) reviews are often those written by forum members with evidently no connection to the product nor axe to grind.

[mic-d]

I agree WW, the only warts and all reviews I see these days are Choice magazine, what a pity they don't do tools.
I spoke to a reviewer a while back about a product they were testing for an upcoming review and they were quite frank about the shortfalls. I can't recall a single mention of any of those negatives in the published review.

Cheers
Michael

[Ron Dunn]

Another "me too". I'm sick and tired of "reviews" that are nothing more than sycophancy ... payback for free tools.

I once had an interesting conversation with the guy that runs woodshopdemos.com. He says that he only posts good reviews, leaving bad tools off his site. Even if his posted reviews are completely unbiased and accurate, I believe he is doing a dis-service by not posting reviews of crap.

I'm far more interested in what is WRONG with tools than what is right. Helping someone avoid a bad buy is far more valuable than cheerleading for one's favourite (free or otherwise) brand.

[wheelinround]

Thanks gentlemen for your input interesting I am not alone.

Ray

As usual I find that what i think is likely to be the case lies somewhere in between the extremes.
I agree here Jeremy knowing not just single users but business who have done the shonky return mainly due to buying underpowered what ever to save money. Having been on the repairing side as well as when customers I have delt with personally tried it on. Sadly its when its genuine and it goes to legal thats when the user is left out in the cold not knowing or having the technical background to fight it.

Internet reviews by actual owners can be a useful antidote, but they do tend to be somewhat unbalanced, reflecting the individual's perspective of the tool as they used it. They do tend to be negative, but nothing can beat actual experrience of real people. You just have to read them allowing for that bias.

This is often more an honest review even if elaborated on by to many, maybe they should take up being reviewers.

So I do my research by to try to narrow down to the few tools that I might want to look at and then actually look at those three or four. No review ever beats going over the tool in person.

I research and review and often give up in disgust at what I was lead to via these.

These days so often one tools is so identical to another in other than colour or brand name its just the price that's the difference.

[Groggy]

While I agree with you about the reviews, the quoted article was not about reviews. It was about internet posts which are not reviews but complaint reports (usually).

So I find myself agreeing with Hintz AND with Wheelin.

I couldn't find any reference in the thread to this "I also understand that Vendors have to make a living but stepping in to stop a thread is hiding the facts" - where was this done?

[wheelinround]

While I agree with you about the reviews, the quoted article was not about reviews. It was about internet posts which are not reviews but complaint reports (usually).

So I find myself agreeing with Hintz AND with Wheelin.

I couldn't find any reference in the thread to this "I also understand that Vendors have to make a living but stepping in to stop a thread is hiding the facts" - where was this done?

It wasn't in the article Greg it was my observation something I have seen done a couple of places.

Edit 1322 hrs I have also seen legal action taken to stop people from doing this on the internet.

[wheelinround]

I have just read what I consider and Honest review on a new computer so I guess there are those out there who write them do it right after all.

Ray

[Groggy]

Funny things those bottom end Eee PCs, I've never understood the drawcard for them. For the price you can usually get a very good second hand machine with 2-3 times the spec.

[derekcohen]

I have no option but to respond to this thread.

How long do you think the likes of Triton, LN or LV would keep sending their products out for review if they didn't receive adulatory prose in return?

Let's see. I get tools from LV and a few others. I write reviews. Ergo, I must write what manufacturers want.

This is simply not true. It is actually quite insulting.

I do get tools from LV, but these are usually associated with the pre-production feedback I provide. I also send pre-production tools back to LV. I do not get requests from LV to write reviews. Ever. Period. I write reviews on tools that I believe others will find interesting. I write articles about woodworking in a number of areas that I believe others will find interesting. I write because it is a hobby. And I had been doing this long before LV came into the picture, as many here are aware.

Let's talk about "bias". What is correct to say is that everyone has a bias. This bias may be to prefer one type of tool, or a specific type of design, or even to like and respect a designer/manufacturer as a person. However, bias is not the enemy - not recognising or denying one's bias is the enemy. Objectivity comes from being able to control bias. Don't forget I am a professional psychologist and steeped in the scientific method. Scientific research is all about the attempt to control bias. And the hallmark of scientific research design lies in its that it method may be reproduced by others to test whether the results were fair.

When I write a review, one part is simply the description of the components. Another is the way in which evidence of the performance is reported. Both these are open to bias, and the only way I can think to control my bias is to present evidence in an objective form, that is, to take photos of everything and record and report measurements. I make comparisons with other, known tools, so that the measurements can be interpreted by most readers. I am aware that this can lead to the review becoming too "dry" for some, but to do less leaves the conclusions open to criticism. The only area that I can say is validly open to criticism as "unscientific" is my description of the experience of using the tool (a phenomenological approach). In a way, this latter area is more art than science.

I cannot say that I do not experience a desire to please a manufacturer. I do. Most of these guys are just the best people. The likes of Rob Lee and Thomas Lie-Nielsen are amongst the best role models one could wish to find. And to have the opportunity to chat with them, often more about family than about tools, makes it impossible to see them as objects rather than real people. So of course I have a desire to please them. However, when it comes to writing, not only do I have to live with myself, but I respect these peope too much to treat them dishonestly. They are men of great integrity. They expect me to be open about my observations. What makes it easier is that any problems present are likely to be quite minor. No tool goes into production without a great deal of testing to iron out any problems.

Why do I do these reviews? I can't help it - it is my nature and professional training to analyse. I was the kid who pulled everything apart. I have never stopped being a compulsive tinkerer

Without meaning to sound arrogant, I do think that writing a good review is a considerably harder task than most (readers) realise.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ron Dunn]

I'm sure you are correct, Derek - writing a good review is hard.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with your reviews, which I find well written and reasonably objective. And the tools with which you are working are backed by some of the most trustworthy people in the field of woodworking.

What most people are coming to realise, however, is that most reviews don't live up to that standard. Try and find a bad review of a Festool Kapex, for example. Why is it that there are numerous reports of problems with Kapex, many replacements and returns, yet not ONE review that I've read has commented on these problems? (That's a rhetorical question, because you don't review these tools)

Too many blogs and "review" sites these days are nothing more than an attempt to fill the toolshed without having to pay.

[wheelinround]

Derek thank you exactly what I wanted a response from a reviewer here. I hope you read the guys review from the states. I did it is not unbiased towards users of tools unfortunately or to the worlds way of contact these days the internet.

I have done Technical writing of manuals for vehicles and the parts manuals as well. Brochures for coach tours so I do have similar experience, its not easy . I have done this as contract and as paid employee.

I have not had the opportunity to read other than your blog your reviews and can say they are a pleasure to read.


Further to Ron Dunn statement during this past 12 to 18 months re-call's on Dewalt tools were high not one mention in reviews.

[jimbur]

Leaving Derek out of the argument there are so many factors in the selling of poor tools.
These days it often starts with the box they're in. How many have we seen where the word tradesman comes into the blurb? Have manufacturers ever been taken up on dishonest advertising?
No reviewer with respect for his own skin is going to put a lump of australian sun dried hardwood in a cheap lathe and attempt to shape it using cheap chisels never mind using it for a few weeks to really see what it's like.
The only fair test with power tools is to work them - stick them in a shop and see how long they last before being thrown out of the door.
With hand tools the only test is that of time and usage. Most of mine are well over forty years old and have stood the test of time. I cull the crap.
Chisels, handsaws, planes etc need to be tested at least through a few grindings, sharpenings and seeing how they react when hitting the odd nail that wasn't there!
We need honest reviewers more than ever. At one time the brand guaranteed the quality, not any more when good companies have had their names attached to rubbish..
Jim

[Woodwould]

Let's see. I get tools from LV and a few others. I write reviews. Ergo, I must write what manufacturers want.

Did I offend you? Sorry, but from your vantage point atop your horse, you may have noticed there are others on the net who review LV tools too!

Don't forget I am a professional psychologist and steeped in the scientific method.

Now you're just grandstanding. There are many forum members with professional capabilities far more suited to tool reviewing than a psychologist!

Why do I do these reviews?

I don't want to be rude; really, why do you?

I was the kid who pulled everything apart. I have never stopped being a compulsive tinkerer.

As are the majority of forum members I suspect.

Without meaning to sound arrogant, I do think that writing a good review is a considerably harder task than most (readers) realise.

I hate to tell you - you do come across as arrogant (as I know I do at times, but I'm not bothered about calling a spade a spade). However my response is not aimed at humiliating you, but to illustrate the process and pale conformity of tool reviews. Tool reviews are not at all difficult to write if one is honest. Are you really so naïve as to believe your mate Rob sends you hardware out of friendship alone? I seriously doubt if LV (and others) would continue sending you tools if you ceased writing your reviews.


And why you? Again I'm not being rude, but there are dozens of eminently qualified woodworkers out there with astute opinions and a sharp pen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not canvassing for the job; I doubt if I'd ever be asked to write more than the one review anyway (although writing does constitute a broad facet of my income).

Instead of the majority of tool reviews being favourable, they should be predominantly critical as true craftsmen are of most new tools initially. No one tool can possibly appeal to everyone, yet reading all the reviews, one could be forgiven for thinking mankind has achieved the apogee of tool design and manufacture!

Verbose and apparently conformist reviews will attract nothing but disrespect from all but the lightest-weight hobbyist. Nobody believes a word of internet reviews; people read them on the rare chance the reviewer actually reports something like "Don't waste your money on this rubbish". But of course that never happens even though there is an increasingly varied amount of cheap and nasty tat out there!


We are all fed up with the general self-efficacy and flaccid evaluations. We deserve the guts and entrails in all their gory glory.