Even more shooting board questions

[edzell]

Hi; I'm new to this board.

Here's a brief(?) preamble about myself which you can skip if you want: I'm an impecunious pensioner coming late to woodworking although I've always done a fair amount of handyman kind of things - mostly with dimension lumber, plywood & screws (never could figure how to make nails work.) I now want to make fine-woodwork items, starting with small things like fancy (or not so fancy) cutting boards, jewellery boxes, small clocks ....???? I have access to a communal workshop with stationary tools which are used by various (largely unsupervised) people. Between the often dull/chipped/maladjusted nature of the equipment, and my own lack of skill or experience, I'm having a hard time producing any glue-able components with flat faces; or straight, or square, edges or ends. At home my stationary machines are a 30 year old radial arm saw and a small drill press. Then there's a couple of routers with which I have little experience, handheld power drill and miscellaneous, usually pre-owned, hand tools handed down or otherwise acquired - two small planes, some chisels, handsaws and so on. My bench is the remains of a dilapidated heavy office desk with 2 chunks of 3/4" plywood in place of the original top. It does have a vice but lacks most of the amenities of a "real" woodwork bench.

So anyway, what's my point? I'm thinking I'd get on better planing my edges & ends with a shooting board rather than messing them up in nanoseconds on the workshop machinery. (I should mention that I'm uncomfortable with waste, whether it's using power tools where hadwork would suffice, or the idea of routing a bowl out of a nice piece of stock so that 90% of it is reduced to shavings.) So I've been browsing the web and this forum - GREAT forum! - about shooting boards - I'll call them SBs for (slight & belated) brevity; and of course I now have some questions or comments:

Most of the postings seem to be concerned with SBs used for shooting cross-grain and board ends or mitres. I'm interested in also trying to make & use boards for truing and straightening long edges, along the grain. Wondering what are the limits to length of board that could be worked, and what problems to anticipate. Comments would be welcome, especially if based on hands-on experience.

(I just deleted a whole paragraph here, that turned out to be nonsense the more I tried to explain it. Sometimes developing your thoughts on paper, as if trying to clarify them to someone else, really helps clarify them for yourself. So forget that I spoke!)

Next I wonder what can be done so that pieces of identical length/width can be easily produced? Most of the discussions I've read seem to be about micro-planing so as to sneak up to a measured mark, as opposed to the power-saw techniques of using fences & end-stops to make identical pieces "first try." I'm thinking there must be ways to do something similar with SBs but so far I'm unsure it's simple. Maybe just because I don't yet have enough experience with hand planing. Anybody here have feedback on this?

A slightly different but related question; is there an SB kind of setup for flattening the faces of a bowed or warped board? I.E. some kind of guiding, jig-type device that would let a novice plane a board flat without years of practice. I may not have that long

Thanks for all info, both anticipated and already gleaned here.

[Petethebutcher]

Hi Edzell,
Beautifull Vancover Island ah!!! Had the pleasure of spending a few days in 2006 staying with a friend at Camble River, flabergasting area.


Now I'm not going to try and solve all your woody problems but as to dressing up a piece of timber by hand, its so difficult.
You didn't mention how small your plane was? That may be your constraint if it is say less then 8", bigger would be better.
Nail a scrap of timber for a bench stop accross the end of your bench top that is thinner then the timber you wish to dress, about 1/2 the thickness.
Lay your timber on the bench top with the curved or cupped side up and the end resting against your bench stop.
With a sharp plane start planning the high spots off, simple huh!!
Continue checking whats happing with eye and later with a straight edge and also two straight edges to chech for twist.
When you are happy with that sided use a marking gauge from that side and mark all around the thicness that you want. Lay the board down and again with a sharp plane go to town and "sneak up" on those marks.

The simpler way is to find a freind with a jointer (for straighting a board) and a thicknesser for dressing a board to final acurate size.

Edzell I was most impressed with the size of the douglas fir's and cedar that I saw in provincel park, I have never felt so dewarfed.

Cheers peter

[Caliban]

Welcome to our forum.
I loved reading your initial post and you should have left the deleted paragraph. We're used to trying to work out people's mental meanderings, you should read the early posts by wild dingo to see what we can interpret.

To try to answer your question.
If I were in your position I think I'd put up with dull and nicked blades on the jointer in the workshop and fix up the finish with a handplane rather than trying to flatten mongrel stock by hand.

Michael Connor here in Australia makes a range of tools including a six foot long shooting board, so it can be done. It might be worth your while to check out his website.

[edzell]

Pete: (what do you butcher?)

Hi Edzell,
Beautifull Vancover Island ah!!! Had the pleasure of spending a few days in 2006 staying with a friend at Camble River, flabergasting area.

Thanks for the nice words; yes it's a great place to live. I still have soft spots for Scotland where I grew up - even Glasgow which was still a struggling grimy centre of heavy industry. But I'm not moving from here. Couldn't afford the UK now even if I wanted.

Enough of the off-topicality.

Thanks for the description of planing a board flat. I'll try to live with my disappointment that you didn't have a handy-dandy jig design to save me all that eye-hand co-ordination. My planes are Bailey picked up at a second-hand store: a 7" block(?) plane and a not-so-small after all 14" fore(?) plane. I'm not up on the terminology. The small one has 2" of sole ahead of the blade, the other has 4". The larger one also is of mixed pedigree - not all parts are Bailey but the body is. Actually the smaller one may not be Bailey - it's the right colour but just says "Made in USA." You get the picture - they're not high end tools.

The simpler way is to find a freind with a jointer (for straighting a board) and a thicknesser for dressing a board to final acurate size.

We have those at the old farts' workshop but I have little success with them myself. My jointed edges are always curved or tapered. Then there's the flaws left by bad blades that have to be dressed by hand anyway. Maybe I should just try to con someone else into prepping my wood. Not sure that would be appreciated though - or that I'd be happy with the result

Besides, I just want to be able to do this by hand. Just because ....

I was most impressed with the size of the douglas fir's and cedar that I saw in provincel park

D'you remember which park? We're in Port Alberni - west side of the Island - and often travel through Cathedral Grove - also called MacMillan Park - which has some of the biggest firs & cedars on the island. Sadly it's surrounded by logging property that cuts closer year by year, so the park gets more & more vulnerable to wind-fall.

Caliban:(Remember when you could say you were Caliban without having to spell it out?)

...you should have left the deleted paragraph. We're used to trying to work out people's mental meanderings, you should read the early posts by wild dingo to see what we can interpret.

I got tangled up because I was picturing a ramped board made from a plank that was supported clear of the baseboard at one or both ends, so had a tapering airspace underneath, along the run of the plane. So I couldn't see how the little unplaned ledge, for the sole of the plane to run along, would be preserved or even exist. Of course the simple answer is that there must be accurate plane-sole support right down at the base-board level, no matter what. I figured that out in the middle of the night.

Maybe that's not too hard to follow but I assure you some of my mental meanderings would leave you super-boggled.

Here's something else that came to me when I'd rather have been asleep: I see folks talking about having everything set up so accurately that they can plane off uniform shavings of .001" leaving a perfectly perpendicular edge. Well hang on a minute. How do they adjust the projection & alignment of the plane blade? Isn't that done by eyeball? To an accurate thousandth of an inch across a two inch wide blade? Could somebody be pulling (at the very least) my leg?

... I think I'd put up with dull and nicked blades on the jointer in the workshop and fix up the finish with a handplane rather than trying to flatten mongrel stock by hand.

How dare you insult my highly pedigreed stock. These are abandoned offcuts from the flooring in prestigious homes such as could only be owned by the rich-and-famous (or fearlessly over-indebted.)

Seriously, thanks for the advice but as a dour & stubborn ex-Scot I'm not going to follow it for the present. If you twist my arm really hard I just may promise to let you know in future whether I'm ultimately forced to swallow my pride and go with the planers & jointers.

Michael Connor here in Australia makes a range of tools including a six foot long shooting board, so it can be done. It might be worth your while to check out his website.

I'm going there now - as the kept-waiting-offstage-for-hours speaker announced, when finally invited to give his address

Thanks & cheers to all
---------------

"I have a poet's mind, but a poor exterior:
What goes on inside me is rather superior."
- Stevie Smith

[Wood Borer]

Edzell,

Welcome to the Forum.

I suggest:

- That you become comfortable with sharpening and tuning your 14" plane

- Learn to use it on fairly straight timber

- Then tackle your cupped and warped timber

You don't need to use a shooting board for along the grain, just some practice, a straight edge and a square.

Whilst this might sound a laborious approach to your problem it is a fun and very satisfying journey punctuated with a couple of surmountable hiccups.

The shavings you mentioned are easily achieved with the tools you possess along with a bit of sharpening and practice.

Enjoy your learning journey.

[edzell]

Edzell,

Welcome to the Forum.

I suggest:

- That you become comfortable with sharpening and tuning your 14" plane

- Learn to use it on fairly straight timber

- Then tackle your cupped and warped timber

Sounds absulotely logical.

You don't need to use a shooting board for along the grain, just some practice, a straight edge and a square.

Hmm... I know people can do this but previous attempts/results leave me a bit skeptical that I'll get there.

Whilst this might sound a laborious approach to your problem it is a fun and very satisfying journey punctuated with a couple of surmountable hiccups.

Ah, those hiccups! Feels more like a full blown bronchial spasm. Guess I'm over-anticipating the fun & satisfaction: Accomplishments don't nearly match ambitions, so far. Ah, well, what else is new?

I will try to enjoy the journey for its own sake.
Thanks.

[jmk89]

Three comments I would like to make:
1. Doing is the only way that you can improve. Work on sharpening and you will get sharper blades. Sharper blades will make planing easier. Setup of your planes is important and pretty easy. Plenty of good stuff on that on the Forums or in any number of books. Then just start planing. Hone the blade every time you finish a board.

2. See if you can find someone local who is a handtool user and ask if you can come over and get some tips. Most guys are happy to help out showing you how they do it and helping you do the same. (I would offer, but its a bit far for you to get to Sydney, I suppose). Offer them a bottle of wine or a case of beer for their time.

3. What you learn from books or even from lessons is only worthwhile if you consolidate it by doing planing. The more you do, the more "ah ha" moments you will get as stuff you have learned (books, magazines or lessons) drops into place, like pieces in a jigsaw puzzle.

[Caliban]

[SIZE=4]
Caliban:(Remember when you could say you were Caliban without having to spell it out?)

No, actually, I don't.
Not sure I'm happy with the implication though.
When I chose the name, it was because I'm aesthetically challenged and given to desiring beautiful things I can't afford, it had nothing to do with little girls; perhaps an unfortunate choice now that I think about it.

Oh, your deleted paragraph makes perfect sense.

[edzell]

No, actually, I don't.
Not sure I'm happy with the implication though..

Sorry if I seemed to be making any implications. Not my intent. I guess I thought I was being drily humourous but I see it could easily have been received as a bit offensive. Don't think you took it that way but I'm apologising just in case. It was a pointless thing to say.

Edzell (Alexander)

[Caliban]

Sorry if I seemed to be making any implications. Not my intent. I guess I thought I was being drily humourous but I see it could easily have been received as a bit offensive. Don't think you took it that way but I'm apologising just in case. It was a pointless thing to say.

Edzell (Alexander)

You're right I wasn't offended but you started me thinking that perhaps others think that way, so I thought I better clear it up.
Once more, welcome to our forums, your presence here is appreciated.

[Clinton1]

Hello Edzell.
Others have said that you'll need a good straight edge, but also look at 'winding sticks'... basically two sticks laid across the board you are planing flat.
Duck down to the level of the sticks and see if the front one hides the back one.
If there is a dip or a raised bit, the stick at the back will be seen.

That is a poor explanation, but you can try it out with two identical cereal boxes, two books or two rulers on the dinner table.
Lay two identically dimensioned items on the table or a counter bench, bend down and see what you see. Now raise the back one, on one end only, with a few sheets of paper. Look again... the sticks show the 'wind' (as in wind a clock) in the timber.

The purpose is to identify where the high spots are, and to plane these down till there are no high spots at all.

Another thing to do when practicing and understanding technique is to get your stock and rub the face to be planed with a permanent marker pen. Basically 'colour it in'.
Plane off just one stroke.
Observe the result, see what you learn.

Of course the easiest way is to learn how to set up the machines in the shop and sharpen the blades... sounds like the machines need a little maintenance, and you might also want to think about the quality of your planes, as they may need some maintenance as well (fettling planes).

Also, it may pay to take a look here. Anything by Bob Smalser should be viewed as "gold". Also here

Have fun

[edzell]

Much thanks for all the advice & encouragement here. It has actually enabled me to flatten a short board - not perfectly but close enough to convince me it's not only possible but I can do it - me myself personally!

All the comments have been great but maybe the most useful ideas I've gleaned are:
1. Just get on with it and practice. ("Experience begins when you start")
2. But first get your tools as sharp & true as you can make them.
3. And the thing that helped most after those was Clinton's hint about marking the high spots then reducing them by a single shaving.

Now you've all given me so much great reference material to study, how in hell will I ever get round to making something? Seriously, this is a great website (who started it?) and an example of the very best use of the internet.

Thanks all, Alexander.

[Petethebutcher]

Hello Edzell,
I have been away from the computer for a while harvesting wheat but I have been given an early night by the boys.

Pete: (what do you butcher?)

I butcher wood, pigs, sheep and cows but the fun thing that I butcher is wood. I take some pieces of wood, cut them up into little pieces, make a lot of saw dust and shavings, then join the bigger pieces of wood that is left all up together with glue, screws, nails etc Good fun.

D'you remember which park? We're in Port Alberni - west side of the Island

I checked the maps, this Port Alberni is in the center of the island .
The park that we saw the big trees was "Elk Park"

Edzell you have got a lot of good basic information from these fine forum contributors, I do hope you can let us know of your progress.

Cheers Petethebutcher

[edzell]

Hello Edzell,

I butcher wood, pigs, sheep and cows but the fun thing that I butcher is wood. I take some pieces of wood, cut them up into little pieces, make a lot of saw dust and shavings, then join the bigger pieces of wood that is left all up together with glue, screws, nails etc Good fun.

Some of it sounds like bloody good fun

I checked the maps, this Port Alberni is in the center of the island . The park that we saw the big trees was "Elk Park"

Yes we're about the midlle east-west wise, actually closer to the east side, but water-wise we're on the west coast, at the head of a long inlet. The Elk lake area's quite a bit further north as you know.

Edzell you have got a lot of good basic information from these fine forum contributors, I do hope you can let us know of your progress.

Damn right about the info. Progress-wise (I suppose I'm getting way off-topic - shooting boards - but what the...) There are 3 things going on in my workshop right now, more or less simultaneously.

• The middle of the floor is occupied by a half(?) completed 12 foot stitch-&-glue sail/row/motor dinghy.
• I'm in the last stages of setting up new supports & table for my very old RAS (radial arm saw.)
• I'm making a couple of small items that are intended to approach "fine" woodwork; my first serious attempts. They are a bagel cutter - the pix in the mag looked pretty and my son & his wife are bagel fans - and a small slabsided box of my own devising.

On the box & bagel cutter I've given up on the club's planer & jointer and am now started into hand-planing away the damage I created with them. Have the long (~9") sides of the box thicknessed
and near surface finish using my hand planes. For me this is a HUGE advance, greatly assisted by the advice given here.

The boat project is suffering from a serious loss of momentum brought on by surgery a while back. I'm having trouble regaining my enthusiasm, but there's supposed to be a 2-boat regatta next summer solstice with my son, whose similar boat is in the water but not yet rigged for sailing. So I have to get back on it.

Once the RAS is properly set up I'll be making at least one shooting board, probably ramped. (See, I'm back on topic!) In my dreams there will be a board for shooting long edges as well as one (maybe the same one) for cross-grain ends. There also has to be one - or an attachment - for planing square ends at 45 degrees for mitered box corners. Haven't started thinking yet, about how to do that one.

OK that's my lot for today but I'm going to put up a post/query about marking gauges, once I figure out which forum it fits in.

Much thanks to you & all here.

"The trouble with good ideas, is that they soon turn into
a lot of hard work."

[edzell]

I do hope you can let us know of your progress.

Cheers Petethebutcher

Pete, I'm shifting to the thread titled "Making a shooting board." My "progress" seems relevant to that thread so I'm relating it there.

Cheers, Edzell.