Confused

[Dorothy Dix]

Have been married for 9 years now and with two young children (between 4 and 6). I'm in this rut where I don't want to be with the other half anymore. This horrible, nagging feeling I've got wont go away and I've got no idea what to do. I've got no close friends who I'd like to discuss this with. Hence the faux nickname (I'm registered as someone else on these forums) and posing the question to whoever might have had some experience.

I'm not going to go into the how's and why's of why I think our relationship is has decayed however I tried to discuss this with the wife and was dismissed and shouted down when I suggested we might need to seek alternatives. She also told me access to the children would be very hard if we did part. This is the kicker, love my children more than anything in this world. Even more than the shed and it's contents! So I assume the wife doesn't want to part and here I am.

Do I stay for the children or do I leave and take my chances with the legal system? To say I'm conflicted is an understatement. It brings me to tears and I can tell it's starting to bog me down. So, over to you, what do you think? I'm interested in other blokes who've been through this before. Not necessarily divorce/separation, but those who have wanted to leave but couldn't for some reason or another.

Thanks all.

[Christos]

I will only guess that you are in Australia and that you have signed on using a different name.

Take a look at this web page.

Welcome to Relationships Australia

[tea lady]

I'm so sad for you. Its very hard with two young kids. She is prolly feeling very frazzled and over worked. Its hard getting back to what you actually have together without the kids. Keep trying to discuss things I guess. Try and do things together without the kids. FInd a local high school student to baby sit and go out. If she won't come to counseling with you, go by yourself. It will help clarify things for you.

And she can't keep the kids away from you. They start with presumed 50% care these days. :S

[Sturdee]

I've got no close friends who I'd like to discuss this with.

If you are who I think you are then send me a pm so we can get together and have a chat. Although I never went through your problem, I can listen. That may help.


Peter.

[FenceFurniture]

The following is from a perspective of assuming that you might separate:

+1 for not worrying about access to the children. It's the age-old threat, and is as empty as a shed without tools, timber and dust.

However, from my experience that won't necessarily stop the children from being poisoned against you or your family. It is critical that you don't indulge in the same activity (and that will take great resolve on occasion). This can be very disturbing to (usually) the father who does not have the day to day influence that he once had. In my case I had to battle an entire family (right through to not-so-great-grandparents), because I committed the crime of leaving the family. They suffer from George Bush mentality (not with us then you're agin us). In short, they are a tribal clan. Not a single member of my family was invited to either of their 21st birthday celebrations.

You have to maintain your dignity as best you can.

The children will be far better off not living in an unhappy home. Whether or not they have two happy homes to live in will remain to be seen, but that is certainly the objective.

When my son was a little tyke we used to vege garden together. In recent years (he's now 23) things have not been too good between us, but appears to be resolved now. On Xmas Day I received an email from him, saying how he wants to grow his own veges (he's a raw vegan) and would "love to pick my brain about it". Maybe we've gone full circle. This was rather more uplifting than the previous Xmas email which informed me that he had been overseas for 4 months, and wouldn't be back for another 6 or so.

I can tell you this much - separation and subsequent divorce will bring out the worst in both parties (most likely scenario), but as long as at least one of you maintains the vision it will work out in the end. It is an exceptionally trying time, but less so than living in a relationship that has passed the "best before" date.

You'll certainly learn a very great deal about the unpleasant side of human nature, I'm afraid.

Apologies if this all sounds depressing and downcast, but these are (or at least can be) the facts of life.

[Master Splinter]

Putting on my nasty, realistic, been there, suffered through that, hat:

(sorry, but when it comes to using the kids as a bargaining tool in an ending relationship, it really brings out the a**hole in me. She's already played that card, so it's time for both barrels)

(and tea lady...50% is the presumption, but that assumes that both parties are rational and don't want to use any means possible {also known as 'making sh*t up'} to punish the other party. Courts still tend to side with the mother.)

In a long and nasty divorce you'll see how little consideration is given to the father by the courts (yes, you have rights, but be prepared to have to fight for them at every step of the way and for the process to take 3-4 years/$30k plus with an obstructive ex-spouse).

There seems to a strong who-has-the-kids-when-it-all-starts advantage in the process. Taking that into account, here's my opinion....

1) Go and buy one of the small MP3 recorders with long battery life. Check that it picks up voice in a reasonable range. Anything nasty (like threats to make it hard for the kids to see you) that the to-be-ex says can be very handy to have on record.

2) Tools (hey, this is a woodworking forum). These are part of the asset pool (unless they are tools of your trade) to be divided, so if there is anything there of strong sentimental value (dad's old hand drill, that $800 Lie Neilson plane with the cryo-cooled tool steel blade, dad's old 5 axis CNC mill or whatever)...it should take a holiday with a trusted friend or storage location before the nastiness commences, otherwise the ex might trash it out of spite.

3) After that, be the first to strike. For this, you'll need advance preparation. If you are in a small town, go and have discussions with all the good family lawyers there. Typically they give a free one-hour initial meeting; discuss your situation and see what they suggest.

This both helps you find the right lawyer, and (since you have discussed your case with them) it also means that all the other lawyers you saw are now conflicted and cannot take your ex's case for a certain amount of time.

4) When you have decided on a lawyer, go back to discuss more things with him and mention that you are worried that (as she got hysterical and made threats about the kids last time you discussed a divorce) she might get violent and you are worried about both the kids safety and your own. See what steps he recommends.

5) After you've done that preparation - which, if possible should include arranging (on an innocent excuse) for the kids to be with your relatives for a week or so, attempt to have another conversation with her about your relationship.

I'd suggest doing this on a Sunday (or another day that means she'll be going to work the next day). But make sure you have a few days of leave booked in so you can continue with your options.

When you start to bring up the subject, refer back to the last time you tried just to establish that you have talked to her before about it "...you know how we talked earlier this year about our relationship and that didn't really go anywhere...well, I'm still feeling that way..."

Make sure you record this conversation, both to catch any threats by her, and to provide evidence that no, you did not threaten to stab her or whatever else she *will* claim later. It's also good if she gets hysterical and out of control.

If she remains calm and rational and agrees to relationship counseling, good (it would be handy to have a counseling session booked for the next day). If she goes hysterical, do your best to make sure she is ummm...in fine form for a performance. Don't try to calm her down or placate her.

Assuming she is the hysterical type and/or counseling is unlikely to work, your next step is to get her out of the marital home. When she goes to work the next day, change the door locks so she is locked out.

Box up a few boxes of her stuff for her to collect, and phone one of her relatives to see if she can stay with them 'for a few days'. Then phone her and do the 'you're out the door, don't let it hit your ass on the way out' speech. If possible do this on speakerphone and record it all in case she makes more threats.

If you need police assistance with removing her from the premises (which you are doing because you are worried about your own safety as well as the safety of the kids) and you have some of her hysterical rants recorded, be prepared to give the police a copy. (You should discuss the finer details with your lawyer back in step 4).

Also be prepared to get a restraining order against her, and if possible (due to her threatening behavior) limit her access to the kids to weekends and only when there is another adult present (yourself, or another of your family members).

If possible, don't play the 'I have recordings of you saying...' card too early. The more she makes threats without knowing they could be recorded, the better (and if you don't record them, it's just 'he said/she said', which is useless in court).

If you do end up in court, you want to be able to show that any statement she makes about you should not be trusted without independent verification.

When dealing with her, always do everything in writing, record all face-to-face contact, make no cash payments to her (always have a record) and have no expectations of her doing anything she promises.

I applaud you trying to flag your relationship problems with your spouse.

My ex didn't raise any until she had spent all of three nights... errr...test driving a number of replacement partners from from a few local nightclubs, as she didn't want to jump until she was absolutely sure she could find a new guy...and yet she has the gall to be upset that I didn't say 'Merry Christmas' to her a few days ago! (Honestly, I looked for a christmas card that expressed my feelings, but there were no "I hope you choke on Santa's reindeer poop" cards!)

Sorry to sound like such a nasty person in this - but it's simply the advice I would give to my younger, less experienced self!

[wheelinround]

I think many have been through this situation, I know I have and we are still together 37 yrs now and happy. I know of a couple who live in the same house their kids are all grown moved out and they live separate lives but put on false faces for relations and religion.

My view is we all look for that spark, sadly some look elsewhere instead of re-kindling the old one. Others bury themselves into work, hobbies, kids, clubs this doesn't always improve a thing.


A Member off this forum posted this elsewhere.


MARRIED OR NOT, YOU SHOULD READ THIS ...


“When I got home that night as my wife served dinner, I held her hand and said, I’ve got something to tell you. She sat down and ate quietly. Again I observed the hurt in her eyes.
Suddenly I didn’t know how to open my mouth. But I had to let her know what I was thinking. I want a divorce. I raised the topic calmly. She didn’t seem to be annoyed by my words, instead she asked me softly, why?

I avoided her question. This made her angry. She threw away the chopsticks and shouted at me, you are not a man! That night, we didn’t talk to each other. She was weeping. I knew she wanted to find out what had happened to our marriage. But I could hardly give her a satisfactory answer; she had lost my heart to Jane. I didn’t love her anymore. I just pitied her!

With a deep sense of guilt, I drafted a divorce agreement which stated that she could own our house, our car, and 30% stake of my company. She glanced at it and then tore it into pieces. The woman who had spent ten years of her life with me had become a stranger. I felt sorry for her wasted time, resources and energy but I could not take back what I had said for I loved Jane so dearly. Finally she cried loudly in front of me, which was what I had expected to see. To me her cry was actually a kind of release. The idea of divorce which had obsessed me for several weeks seemed to be firmer and clearer now.

The next day, I came back home very late and found her writing something at the table. I didn’t have supper but went straight to sleep and fell asleep very fast because I was tired after an eventful day with Jane. When I woke up, she was still there at the table writing. I just did not care so I turned over and was asleep again.

In the morning she presented her divorce conditions: she didn’t want anything from me, but needed a month’s notice before the divorce. She requested that in that one month we both struggle to live as normal a life as possible. Her reasons were simple: our son had his exams in a month’s time and she didn’t want to disrupt him with our broken marriage.

This was agreeable to me. But she had something more, she asked me to recall how I had carried her into out bridal room on our wedding day. She requested that every day for the month’s duration I carry her out of our bedroom to the front door ever morning. I thought she was going crazy. Just to make our last days together bearable I accepted her odd request.

I told Jane about my wife’s divorce conditions. . She laughed loudly and thought it was absurd. No matter what tricks she applies, she has to face the divorce, she said scornfully.

My wife and I hadn’t had any body contact since my divorce intention was explicitly expressed. So when I carried her out on the first day, we both appeared clumsy. Our son clapped behind us, daddy is holding mommy in his arms. His words brought me a sense of pain. From the bedroom to the sitting room, then to the door, I walked over ten meters with her in my arms. She closed her eyes and said softly; don’t tell our son about the divorce. I nodded, feeling somewhat upset. I put her down outside the door. She went to wait for the bus to work. I drove alone to the office.

On the second day, both of us acted much more easily. She leaned on my chest. I could smell the fragrance of her blouse. I realized that I hadn’t looked at this woman carefully for a long time. I realized she was not young any more. There were fine wrinkles on her face, her hair was graying! Our marriage had taken its toll on her. For a minute I wondered what I had done to her.

On the fourth day, when I lifted her up, I felt a sense of intimacy returning. This was the woman who had given ten years of her life to me. On the fifth and sixth day, I realized that our sense of intimacy was growing again. I didn’t tell Jane about this. It became easier to carry her as the month slipped by. Perhaps the everyday workout made me stronger.

She was choosing what to wear one morning. She tried on quite a few dresses but could not find a suitable one. Then she sighed, all my dresses have grown bigger. I suddenly realized that she had grown so thin, that was the reason why I could carry her more easily.

Suddenly it hit me… she had buried so much pain and bitterness in her heart. Subconsciously I reached out and touched her head.

Our son came in at the moment and said, Dad, it’s time to carry mom out. To him, seeing his father carrying his mother out had become an essential part of his life. My wife gestured to our son to come closer and hugged him tightly. I turned my face away because I was afraid I might change my mind at this last minute. I then held her in my arms, walking from the bedroom, through the sitting room, to the hallway. Her hand surrounded my neck softly and naturally. I held her body tightly; it was just like our wedding day.

But her much lighter weight made me sad. On the last day, when I held her in my arms I could hardly move a step. Our son had gone to school. I held her tightly and said, I hadn’t noticed that our life lacked intimacy. I drove to office…. jumped out of the car swiftly without locking the door. I was afraid any delay would make me change my mind…I walked upstairs. Jane opened the door and I said to her, Sorry, Jane, I do not want the divorce anymore.

She looked at me, astonished, and then touched my forehead. Do you have a fever? She said. I moved her hand off my head. Sorry, Jane, I said, I won’t divorce. My marriage life was boring probably because she and I didn’t value the details of our lives, not because we didn’t love each other anymore. Now I realize that since I carried her into my home on our wedding day I am supposed to hold her until death do us apart. Jane seemed to suddenly wake up. She gave me a loud slap and then slammed the door and burst into tears. I walked downstairs and drove away. At the floral shop on the way, I ordered a bouquet of flowers for my wife. The salesgirl asked me what to write on the card. I smiled and wrote, I’ll carry you out every morning until death do us apart.

That evening I arrived home, flowers in my hands, a smile on my face, I run up stairs, only to find my wife in the bed -dead. My wife had been fighting CANCER for months and I was so busy with Jane to even notice. She knew that she would die soon and she wanted to save me from the whatever negative reaction from our son, in case we push through with the divorce.— At least, in the eyes of our son—- I’m a loving husband….

The small details of your lives are what really matter in a relationship. It is not the mansion, the car, property, the money in the bank. These create an environment conducive for happiness but cannot give happiness in themselves.

So find time to be your spouse’s friend and do those little things for each other that build intimacy. Do have a real happy marriage!

If you don’t share this, nothing will happen to you.

If you do, you just might save a marriage. Many of life’s failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up. ♥

[FenceFurniture]

1) Go and buy one of the small MP3 recorders with long battery life. Check that it picks up voice in a reasonable range. Anything nasty (like threats to make it hard for the kids to see you) that the to-be-ex says can be very handy to have on record.
Exercise caution with this and get legal advice on whether or not this can be done (referring to the Listening Devices Act or whatever it's called. It is most likely that the recordings cannot be used as evidence, unless the other party knows the "conversation" is being recorded. However, they can be useful in what I would call good Policing. A few years ago I had a neighbour from hell, and one day I recorded the conversation (unknown to him). He called the Police, who came to interview me, and this guy had come up with some absolute bollocks. I told them that I had the recording, but at first they wouldn't listen to it. As the tale became more and more bizarre, I just played it back to them without asking. The coppers trotted off to tell him to pull his head in.

Assuming she is the hysterical type and/or counseling is unlikely to work, your next step is to get her out of the marital home. When she goes to work the next day, change the door locks so she is locked out.
Again, you'll need advice. Assuming no AVO is in place, then as long as her name is on title she can legitimately break in, and only has to make temporary repairs to the damage.

Box up a few boxes of her stuff for her to collect, and phone one of her relatives to see if she can stay with them 'for a few days'. Then phone her and do the 'you're out the door, don't let it hit your ass on the way out' speech. If possible do this on speakerphone and record it all in case she makes more threats.
Mandatory that advice be sought on this one. You may just find that it'll backfire big time.

If you need police assistance with removing her from the premises.....
Unlikely to happen if there is no AVO in place.

MS, you quite obviously went through a very nasty and expensive one. My first one got pretty nasty, and the second was just straight up and down vicious, from the start (with trumped up criminal charges involved).



Keep the solicitors to a minimum - tell the other side to send the correspondence directly to you, and you can pass it on to your solicitor if necessary (no need to pay for every time they lift a finger). Without wishing to upset any of our members who are are solicitors, you'll never convince me that on some occasions the solicitors haven't had a private chat on how to keep this thing fuelled up. It's emotional money for jam. If your adversary wants to fritter away her share of the house on solicitors then so be it. My bill was approx half of my first wife's.

Above all, play it smart, and be prepared by doing your research. For example, the local Coppers will soon tell you what restrictions there are on recording conversations, and it'll cost you zip.

If clearly outrageous claims (financial) are being made then just say "Ok, honey, the court can sort that one out - and I know that what I have proposed is fair and reasonable - try your luck". I did this a number of times, and we never went to court over it (which is when it WILL cost you $30k), and what's more I got exactly what I asked for, because it was fair (and clearly her solicitor put her straight on the facts of court life - if a judge takes a dislike to one party then that party had better watch out bigtime).

[Master Splinter]

I'm all for trying reconciliation and all that heartwarming soppy sentimental chain letter stuff, but there are limits.

If she reacted with sorrow and suggesting counseling or other 'lets work this out together' conciliatory approaches, I'd say sure, go for it and best of luck.

But when she makes a statement like "access to the children would be very hard" that's drawing a line in the sand - it's a direct threat which I think shows that she has no real feelings towards you, only for herself and her own wellbeing and that she's not afraid to use the kids as pawns for her benefit (and who cares if it hurts them...she certainly doesn't). They are her toys, and she's not willing to share, especially if not playing nicely causes you emotional distress.

There's no compassion or empathy shown in a statement like that, only a desire to be in control and have the relationship continue to run the way she wants.

TL;DR version: Stop putting your d*ck in crazy.


(oh - FenceFurniture - the recording device was a suggestion from my solicitor, so it should be ok in the ACT, at least in regards to family law matters)

[tea lady]

A sad story.

Another possibility..... My ex and I are on quite good terms. So much so that his new girl friend is afraid that we will get back together. But he still does things that remind me why I left him. And I told him to tell her that I wouldn't take him back if he begged me. He said "thanks..... I think" :S

I took a while for us to get to a point where we could separate. He would get very angry if I tryed to say anything. But one day after having a ridiculous argument we just looked at each other and finally agreed that it wasn't working and we had tried enough and we should separate. We had tried counseling too. We just weren't right for each other.

[Dorothy Dix]

Okay, let me elaborate a little.

It hasn't got hostile as yet and nor do I want it to get hostile. She is a GREAT mother and I respect her for that, in fact I still love her.

I work shift work, close to 40-50 hours a week and she works 1-2 days a work and refuses to increase her hours (plenty of scope to increase hours). I'm not embellishing anything by stating I do 90-95% of the housework including washing. She likes to cook (most of the time). If I get home late (from work) there is nothing for me to eat, I have to cook something for myself or usually take something to work. She gets close to 3-4 hours a day for her hobby, I get roughly 5-6 hours a week in the shed, usually after the kids have gone to bed, between 8pm and midnight.
I maintain the house and gardens, she does little, if nothing. On my days off I usually take the kids somewhere or involve them in what I'm doing.

I'm not saying I'm an angel in all this, far from it. In frustration I've kicked a hole in the wall, left the gate open so her (pedigree) dog would escape (geez, I hate the thing, but it wouldn't run away) and provoked my fair share of arguments. I've probably (have) spent some extra money on tools for the shed but I feel as though I can because of the overtime & extra night shifts I've worked. I've been a moody pr1ck but I've ensured I've sought help and have done something about it. In fact, I now hold everything in. Oh, I spend way too much time on this place.

When I confront her with the above her best form of defence is attack. I can't get her to take any responsibility. And that's why I'm where I am, her refusing to take responsibility. I just want time to myself now, I'm burnt out, frazzled and conflicted. Conflicted because if I leave I'll miss my kids, full stop. I don't care about the money, the house or any of those things that comes with separation. I just want to kiss them goodnight everyday of the week and if we separate, that's not going to happen.

[wheelinround]

When we get married/partnerships we don't consider life with others in it. By this I mean children it can change the whole feel of a relationship, it becomes a case of sharing that love and feeling about time as a couple can diminish to zero. One or both parents can feel pushed aside and often left out sometimes this is due to old world upbringing. Where mum takes total control dad becomes just the means of support and living and often the fear factor (Wait till your dad gets home). Mum manages all day long if she isn't working CEO until he walks through the door.

I was onced told whats the worst staying in a life of discontent and making everyones life a misery or finding a solution where by you work things out or move out.

[Master Splinter]

Yep. Work things out or move her out (if you don't move her out, you'll be paying to keep her in the life to which she has become accustomed, so there'll be no change in your circumstances except you'll be only able to afford to live out of the boot of your car for the next 14 years). (add 'arrange child care' to that list of things to do before you start proceedings).

If she's not pulling her weight around the place now, do you seriously think she'll work more hours when she's by herself when she can continue having you support her and the kids? (There's an online family support calculator; use that to see how much of your income she will be legally entitled to just by filling in a few forms).

Ask yourself if you are happy with your current circumstances and can you continue exactly like you are now for the next 5-10-20 years? Or will that drive you crazy? (since you started this thread, I'm guessing its 'drive you crazy' or 'drive you to an early grave').

And...you either love her (and forgive all her lazyness and sloth and it's not an issue) or you want her to change into something else so you can continue to love her. It's got to be one or the other, not both. To me, the fact that she has used a threat to keep the relationship running the way she wants suggests that she doesn't have an emotional investment in you anymore; you're a resource, not a partner.

You could try reducing the hours you work to give you more time with the kids.

[Dorothy Dix]

I pulled the plug this morning, just upped and walked out. Told her I had enough. Didn't even hear a word she said.

[wheelinround]

Not good I feel.

I hope for all sakes something can be done to bring about a return and both finding the underlying reasons. It takes two thats for sure.