Need a FAQ for table top finishes!

[bammo]

Hi Guys,

I've been trawling through hundreds of posts in this section looking for inspiration for the finish on an upcoming Jarrah dining table project. It would be really helpful to those of us with limited experience to have a simple guide to the common finishes that can be used for the more common pieces of furniture - I suspect it might cut down on the repetitive questions as well.

For instance, for a dining table, what are the trade-offs between the gloss levels, look, longevity, scratch/heat resistance, ease of application and ease of repair for, say, a burnished oil/wax finish Vs a Poly Vs a 2 pack finish?

I suspect the answers for a food preparation area will be different, same again for a sideboard.

Personally, I love the "wet look" of a high gloss finish on a big red Jarrah table but buggered if I can figure out whether this would be a nightmare to maintain!

Could we get a FAQ going on this subject for us newbies?

Cheers

Bammo

[kiwiatgundy]

I have the same issues with a nice big slab of red river gum I am ready to prep for a table top. Been looking at pure Tung oil, damned if I know as am novice at finishing.
Any thoughts be appreciated.

[LGS]

Hi Gentlemen (or Ladies)

What you're asking is for someone to tell you how long is a piece of string. But not one kind of string but several, some of which are quite elastic!!

People have different ways of doing the same thing and swear by them. If it floats yer boat,, go for it.

I'm an Oil finish guy. I can get a very nice reflection out of Tung Oil and Wattyl Teak (Scandinavian) Oil Tung Oil has the advantage of being "Food Safe" after it has cured (48 hours odd).
But if you want a high gloss something like a plastic would give you, you want Polyurethane or something similar.

For my method of finishing using the oils I mentioned, you can look here. If you want more info you can contact me.
I'm sure there will be many suggestions all of which will work.

Here's a Tassie Blackwood table finished with Organoil Hard Burnishing Oil.(essentially Tung Oil with 11 secret herbs and spices added) No other finish has been used.

Regards,

Rob

[bammo]

Hi Gentlemen (or Ladies)

What you're asking is for someone to tell you how long is a piece of string. But not one kind of string but several, some of which are quite elastic!!

No - what I'm asking for is a FAQ to help guide us newbies through the high level selection process. A starting point that allows us to then narrow down the investigation process. If you just read the product descriptions for poly vs 2 pack vs tung vs wax it seems like every single product is the best and all offer the same features when clearly they don't. What would be really helpful would be a guide that said (for instance and I'm making this up...)

"Natural Oils (such as brand XXX, type BBB or variant CCC) all share a common set of strengths/weaknesses / all are capable of moderate gloss / are low or high maintenance / need to be reapplied every 2-3 years " etc

"2 pack (such as ....) give very high gloss but tend to..."


There is a lot of information out there in you guy's heads that somehow either doesn't make it to paper or is buried inside deeply technical posts so that it makes it hard for beginners to find. Linux is exactly the same! The information out there about which Linux to choose (and how to install) assumes you either know nothing at all about PC's and is therefore so generic as to be useless or it immediately dives into such a depth of technical complexity that unless you are already a Unix guru you cannot interpret it.

Having said all that, I love the look of the Organoil on your table Rob! Did you burnish using a ROS or by hand? Also - would love to know what the practical implications of having those cross-beams on each end of your table are? Does this make the table stiffer or is there some reason related to movement of the timber?

[woody69]

• Need a FAQ for table top finishes!

Vote number 2 for this topic !!!

Woody

[LGS]

Hi Woody and Bammo.

I recently did some testing on several products loosely labelled Tung Oil. While I can say that I have used Wipe on Poly, I have very little experience with other Urethane products and Shellacs.
I am prepared to get the ball rolling by putting this Tung Oil info together in one or several posts in a "sticky" It's up to you to convince other people that there is merit in putting together info on their preferred products. Bear in mind that doing something like this exposes one to criticism and some negative response, which no-one really wants or needs.
So can the Mods set up a sticky for this topic please?

Bammo, I use a ROS to burnish the Hard Burnishing Oil (HBO) and sand up to 4000 grit. The finish is great, it;s food safe, radiant heat and fluid resistant and can be cleaned using any commercial surface spray (Spray and Wipe for example)
The cross boards at the end of the table I put on to form a border of 32mm depth timber around the centre 19mm boards. So they are primarily cosmetic from my point of view.
Here;s another table finished in HBO.

Regards,

Rob

[steck]

Maybe A Polisher's Handbook by Neil Ellis will meet the needs of a FAQ?

[antiphile]

Hi Gentlemen (or Ladies)

...I'm an Oil finish guy. I can get a very nice reflection out of Tung Oil and Wattyl Teak (Scandinavian) Oil Tung Oil has the advantage of being "Food Safe" after it has cured (48 hours odd).
But if you want a high gloss something like a plastic would give you, you want Polyurethane or something similar.

For my method of finishing using the oils I mentioned, you can look here. If you want more info you can contact me.
I'm sure there will be many suggestions all of which will work...

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob (LGS)

In a private message a while ago I told you I was beiginning to think you were more likely to be an evil genius. Now I've changed my mind and am sure you are an idiot savant! You patiently clarified my stupid assumptions and corrected my mistakes, and talked me through a very successful Hard Burnished Oil finish using the Wattyl Teak Oil. Since then I have done it on a few other projects, including refinishing a utility box I made for the "member of the household who is never wrong" but was a little disappointing. And all of these were great and very satisying finishes.

Ever since then your original comment of "finish to at least 1500 grit but the higher the better" was always nagging at me. So I bit the bullet and sourced some much finer discs from The SandPaper Man (right up to and including 12000 grit micromesh which I think is probably the equivalent of 8000 grit normal sandpaper. It arrived this morning just when I finishing a candlebox for my mum.

So I loaded the 6000, 8000 and 12000 and progressively used them with your technique. The result was astonishing (and this was on unsealed meranti which, as you know, is rather open grained). It not only was better, it was exponentially better. It even makes a mug like me look very professional! And that is quite an achievement!

If I can borrow a decent camera this afternoon, I'll try to take some pics and include them.

Thanks muchly for sharing your knowledge and experience, and cheers
Phil

[bammo]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for sharing that communication - I had (stupidly) assumed that 320 grit was about the finest you could go with a ROS based on what the big green shed sold but the SandPaper store has quickly disabused me of that notion!

For the avoidance of doubt, can I ask you a couple of specific questions:

1) I'm assuming you actually used the burnishing technique, right? i.e. sanding with wet oil
2) If so, at what grit did you start applying the oil? This is the bit that is really unclear to me from the instructions I have seen - they mostly just say to do it from the smallest grit you have which presumes it is the last step
3) Did you use any sort of buffing or wax once you finished with the oil?

Thanks

Marcus

[LGS]

I still think I prefer "Evil Genius", like maybe "The evil oils of Doctor Tung!!"

Phil, if I may interrupt?

Bammo, sand up to 400 grit dry. Wipe the work piece dry with a tack cloth or some Mineral Turps, let it dry. then apply the oil. The process you are about to perform is hard burnishing. When the oil has soaked in and you have let it sit long enough, start sanding with the 400g you used last to dry sand. Then move up through the grits. 1500 is good, 4000 is better and from what Phil says, 12000 is even better.
But I'll let Phil go through the method in more detail.

Regards,

Rob

[antiphile]

Rob: I won't be able to refer to as The Evil Oils of Dr Tung, I'm afraid, because I'l get it confused with The Evil Dr Tongue-Lashing with whom I share a life. So I'll settle for The Evil Savant. Yesterday and today I had a problem with uploading the pics, but I'll keep trying.

Marcus: In response to your questions I apologise for taking a while to respond, but here goes. I'm sure you read through Rob's instructions on his website, so I suggest you initially start with his method step by step. This gives a great and very impressive finish. But having said that (which I also did), we all like to experiment and keep it pretty much the same but with a few tweaks. The candlebox was about my sixth finish using the LGS method as a basis, with the following modifications.

I sanded it initially to 400 grit, then, coated it with oil and left it for 30 miniutes minimum. Since it wasn't sealed, if any part looked as though it had absorbed all the oil, I reapplied in those areas to ensure it was saturated.

When I was ready to start I reapplied another coat of oil, but went back to 240 grit with the ROS on its lowest power setting of 1. This isn't in the original LGS method and at this point (and for the next 2 grades of 320 and 400) I'm not trying to burnish anything, just forcing as much oil into the grain as I possibly can. I suppose I'd give each area 2 or 3 passes with the ROS, and push the "oil slurry" around the surface with the ROS. I recoat the job with oil and do exactly the same with the 320 and more oil then use 400 at a midway power setting of 3 or 4. After using each disk, I wipe the disk with a cloth to clean it before it is put away (I seal them in a large plastic sandwich bag and they are not used for anything else other than this - and it looks like I will get get several dozen uses out of each of the disks at least, but Rob will have more info on that aspect).

When I got up to the same grit as the initial dry sanding (400 in this case), I follow Rob's method exactly and do not apply any more oil. Full power on the ROS (setting 6) and at least 10 up and down passes on each area before progressing to the next finer grade. I can't stress enough that you really need to go to at least 1500 grit equivalent (which is about Micromesh 3200 grade from The Sandpaper Man or the equivalent from elsewhere); but I was blown away by how good the finish was going up to 12000 Micromesh. I admit the Micromesh ones seemed expensive when I saw them on the website at $3.27 each, but bear in mind (a) it looks as though each one will last a long long time if you look after them; and (b) they have a really nice plush backing between the "velcro" and the sanding surface which means even I cxannot damage the job in any way through stupidity.

At the end all I did was use a soft cloth to buff it. However, if you leave it for at least 48 hours to let the oil dry (I learnt this one from experience on one of my earlier attempts), you can coat it with wax for more protection. I didn't do any damage at all by applying the wax earlier than 48 hours, but it didn't buff up as well as it normally does. So I redid it in a few days, and it was just glorious.

Edit added: I should point out, bammo, this was a Burnished Oil finish using Rob'ds suggestion of Wattyl Natural Teak Oil (Scandanavian).

Hope that helps bammo and cheers
Phil

[richardb9]

To get a very durable high gloss finish, I use a flooring urethane...it is resilient to scratches, and water does not affect it. Easy to apply with spray or foam roller.
Richardb9

[bammo]

Update time:

Was a busy little beaver over Christmas and finished off the main table, a large bookcase, a heap of breadboards (Xmas pressies) and refinished a cheap table.

I used a burnished Danish oil on the bookcase and following the instructions above (sanding down to 1500grit followed by wax) I got a brilliant finish. Everyone that touches the timber gets the same look of surprise on their face when they feel how glassy smooth it is. I did a couple of breadboards the same way (but using a kitchen/food safe oil) and immediately started abusing them to see how well they resisted wear. Not surprisingly they didn't cope with some stains and alcohol all that well so I discounted this option for the dining table.

For the dining table top I wound up using the Minwax wipe-on (gloss) poly. I did 3 coats and was very happy with the finish. The table legs were old Jarrah, the top is quite young (comparatively) and you can see the difference. The finish on the top is slightly dimpled where the poly has sunk into the grain. I'm pretty sure that another 1-2 coats of the wipe-on will solve that, but I was in a hurry to finish the table for Christmas

Lessons learned were:

1) The Sandpaper man is absolutely brilliant! Love his work...
2) The wipe-on poly is *ridiculously* easy to use and goes a long way. Very pleasantly surprised by this product.
3) The finish is (so far) very hard wearing with no issues or marks. Applying new coats seems pretty trivial, a light sand and away you go.
4) If you let the belt sander put a divot in the table top make sure you remove it completely because it really is obvious when viewing the high gloss finish on nearly 3m of Jarrah from an angle

[FJ HOSS]

hello guys i am very new to the wood game im used to working with welders. Im finishing an old council clean-up bar possibly of q'land cherry or similiar wood. i wanted to go food safe for finish. I have followed the LGS method with Richardb9's added alterations and was wondering if i have done it correctly since i have started on the underside of the bar for practice i would like to check before starting on the business side of this puppy.

I found when sanding into the MM discs my slurry turned more to a tar/glue which really taxed the ryobi sander... and slowed progress . i am not worried about the sander(i will be buying a back-up for the shelf next trip down the hill) or the slow going . i was just wondering if this is to be expected or should i have put more oil onto the job during the process? i flooded the timber to start and added more throughout the initial 30 min soak. i used feast & watson kitchen timber oil.

i am pretty impressed with the finish i ended up with and appreciate the step by step process outlines.

thank you FJ Hoss

[antiphile]

Howdy to a fellow Novocastrian

I make absolutely no apologies in saying LGS is my "finishing guru". In both publically-available forum posts and in private messages and emails, he has patiently and accurately guided me step-by-step through his technique so I can now regularly achieve results rivalling his posted photos and those on his website. (I should point out this is no easy matter since my IQ only approaches room temperature in winter.)

My first question (after you said your sander bogged down in the oil slurry) is: "Is your sander a true Random Orbital Sander (ROS), or is it just an Orbital Sander?" I made this mistake and had the same problem. If this is the case, you can get a very inexpensive true ROS from Bunnings (an Ozito 450 Watt ROS for about $50). I'm still using one and it truly works a treat, while I'm saving for a Bosch Pro ROS at $250 approx. I can only dream of getting a Festool (like LGS) until I win Lotto.

My second comment relates to the actual oil you're using. May I suggest you follow LGS's advice and stick to Wattyl Natural (Scandavavian) Teak Oil? It is not nearly as viscous as most other ones (it is about the consistency of water), it truly brings out the wood grain brilliantly, and burnishes with a ROS very easily. Also, in the Newcastle area, I can privately advise you where to get it at a very good price.

If you wish, feel free to send a PM for any assistance or a meeting to demonstrate.

Cheers
Phil