Water Dye and Shellac

[Sir Stinkalot]

Hi,

I have made a few toys out of pine with the intention of using U-Beaut water dye. I have heard others say that the pine will take up the dye unevenly and as such result in blotches. One solution was to seal the pine with Shellac before applying the dye.

Anyway I had thought that the Shellac would stop the penetration of the dye ... but I coated the toys in shellac first and then tried to apply the dye.

As a result I found that the dye would tend to sit on top of the shellac and didn't really get drawn in by the pine. I then tried to sand another toy back to raw wood and then apply the dye. This too seemed to sit on top of the wood however had a little more penetration.

After a while I then started to soak the toys in the dye and eventually the colour started to build up but until dry I don't know how it is going to look.

Any comments on how to apply the dye to pine would be appreciated.

Cheers

Stinky.

[watson]

G'day,
I've played with the water dyes a bit, and with the Tea and Coffee mixes, and found they all work better at about 60º - 80º C
I've sanded, flooded with hot water, dried, taken off the stubble, and then brush on hot dye.
Seems to work for me.

[Sir Stinkalot]

Thanks Noel,

I had thought about applying hot but it was too late in the day to start something new. I will check the results of what I have tried tomorrow and see what needs to be done.

[Oddjob1]

Hello folks,

Pine does have a tendency to pepper which to some, me included, is crap! Much mainstream stuff has this affliction because they they haven't figured out how to overcome it as I have. Sorry but I'm not telling, it is a secret!

I'll give you a clue, be quick!

[ubeaut]

Water dye as with any other dye needs to go directly onto the timber as it is DYING the timber. It's a dye not a stain so it changes the colour of the timber, where a stain is basically a watered down paint and colours the surface of the timber..

I have never seen peppering or blotching on pine or any other timber with the water dyes. The preparation of timber is important when using any water dye.
Sand > wet > allow to dry > lightly fine sand > wet again then apply the dye (preferably diluted about 50/50 or with the same wet rag used to dampen the timber.

The dye must be sealed with a surface coating when it'a dry.... Shellac, poly, nitro, etc. not an oil or wax finish as it may leach through.

You can if you wish use U-Beauts Sanding sealer (one coat) instead of wetting the surface to raise the grain, then sand finely and lightly to remove raised grain. The dye will then be redily accepted into the timber, also with no blotching. The wetting down methodd is a longer process but will give the best results, but both work well.

Diluting the dye also helpe and if the colour isn't a bright or as deep as you wanted a second will deepen it as will a third and subsequent applications.


Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil

[Sir Stinkalot]

You can if you wish use U-Beauts Sanding sealer (one coat) instead of wetting the surface to raise the grain, then sand finely and lightly to remove raised grain. The dye will then be redily accepted into the timber, also with no blotching. The wetting down methodd is a longer process but will give the best results, but both work well.

Thanks Neil it is very helpful .... before jumping in boots and all I did read some of the Bible on finishing (taking special note of the tale about the guy and the blocks for the kinder kids) so I knew that it needed to be sealed at the end.

Reading the section on the water dyes made it quite clear that it is best to wet the timber down and then give it a light sand to remove the raised grain. This is perhaps where I made up my own method .....

I was working off the assumption that dye will appear blotchy when applied to raw pine (now cleared up with your post) ..... I also thought that a first coat of shellac would prevent this. I put two and two together and decided that as shellac can be used as a sanding sealer (raising the grain), then I would be able to apply it and then give it a light sand to remove the raised grain and then it would give the same effect as the water wet down method.

The good news is that on viewing again tonight the toys which were treated with shellac still seem to have accepted the dye, perhaps not to exactly the same extent as the raw or sanded timber but to an almost acceptable level. Perhaps another coat of diluted dye would help. It was quite clear that the dye being applied to the shellac finished toys pooled on top much more than the heavily sanded shellac or raw timber.

This experiment now raises a few other questions ....

What is the difference between Ubeaut sanding sealer and shellac (if there is no trade secret )? My method seems to be in keeping with your comments on using sanding sealer instead of water but perhaps my shellac was too thick and as such wasn't technically a sanding sealer but more of a surface finish.

If the sanding sealer and shellac are both ethanol based does this leave and residue in the timber which reduces the penetration of the dye?

Cheers

Stinky.

PS. The dyes are very good ..... I just need to have a play (or ask more questions) to get the best results.

[Oddjob1]

Some time ago a friend said to me that she would never use anything but natural products to finish her furniture, when I suggested Laquer, she said, oh I wont use that stuff because it is not from nature, I will only use Shellac! That is natural! Oops, Laquer is made from celullose, resin from trees, Shellac is chrushed bugs and their excrement! Not natural just conveinient that it looks good! Sorry about the spelling!

Jeff

[ubeaut]

STINKY: Sanding sealer is made with dewaxed white shellac not regular shellac if you have some of this you can make your own for use with dye by adding 10 parts metho to the full strength shellac. Use one coat only then sand lightly with your finest grit paper preferably around 1200.

Oddjob1 You are so wrong with your statement it isn't funny. Lacquer and most other surface coatings are a lot more than you say and many are carcinogenic. Shellac on the other hand IS a natural product. There are no bugs (shellac beetles) used in the shellac, neither is their excrement. It is made from the cocoons. The beetles are much too valuable to crush. No beetles = no shellac.

The shellac is melted with pure alcohol to become French polish. It is used in food stuffs, pharmaceuticals, confectionery, fruit coatings and a whole lot more. Don't know of any other surface coating, furniture finishes that can be used like this, with the exception of waxes.

[Oddjob1]

Yeah stinky I know some of the ingredients in nitro cellulose laquer can get pretty scary, I have read the data sheets on the Mirotone products I use and am happy to say, applyed under the correct guidelines they are quite safe, ( I wouldn't try drinking the stuff, or for that matter Shellac) The laquers I use provide a far superior protective coating than that of Shellac and are far more economical for the customer to afford and let's face it, the customer calls the tune on what they want to do. When I say to the them, I can use Shellac, it's a pretty nice old fashined traditional finish with the best sheen of all! The first thing they ask me is! Will it tolerate wet areas, how tough is it, and most of all, how much will it cost and how long will it take to complete the job! When I give them the guts on it as I'm sure you all know, they say! Have you got anything that is water tolerant, hard wearing, cheap and quick to apply? Even though I do like the finish Shellac gives on timber, 99% of the time am asked to use Laquer! Sadly even to the traditionalist we live in a dollar driven world that sees a lot of our favourite applications lost in favour of economics, we are only slaves to this system even though I myself try to explain to the customer the need to use the genuine old product on some of the restorations I'm asked to do, most demand the best and the latest stuff so that it will last forever. Fortunately some folks are like me and hang the cost, go for the origional, whew!
Anyway having bored everone to tears by now, let me just say the contents of Shellac as handed down to me by my Father and his Father was perhaps somewhat loosely described as being made up of crushed bugs and their sh*t, sorry about the naughty word, not having sought to investigate the details of this nice smelling product I was always happy to use it even knowing of the somewhat dubious way in which I thought it was produced, since your post, I can only say that I am relieved to read of the truth and thanks for that.

PS, love the forums, great to swap knowledge!

Kind regards....Jeff

[ubeaut]

Hoy Oddjob1 - Watch who you're callin' stinky. There's only one odoriferous person on here and that's the stinky one Sir Stinkalot.

I've often been known to tell people who ask, "What is Shellac" - "It's beetle poop" especially annoying people. That fib has been passed down through the ages by generations of polishers, just to shut up and/or freak out pests.

By the way you can now get shellac that's as tough and durable as many other surface coatings. See here. Matter of fact I have one commercial furniture manufacturer who swears by it and now uses little else.

Cheers - Neiil

[jerryc]

Oddjob1,
So much misinformation on shellac.
Water tolerant. I have used it on the interior vetical surfaces of at least three yachts with no adverse effect. Also on two bathroom vanity units.
Easy to apply? Nothing easier.
Hardwearing.? Does have one drawback, it does soften when heat is applied.
Repairability? I have deliberately demonstrated this to a disbeliever by scratching a surface and then repairing it by a simple pullover with a meth rubber.

As for drinking shellac, it would be perfectly safe to do so. Ubeaut has outlined it's many uses in the food industry

Jerryc

[Jim Carroll]

How do you think they get apples to stay shiny

[AUSSIE]

How do you think they get apples to stay shiny

\
The same way cricketers do with the Ball

[Oddjob1]

Sorry Neiil, I'm new here and just misread the last post as Stinky being your name, howdy! I see jerryc has some good info as well, I will try some Shellac on my yacht, but maybe not on the outside hey! As we all know Shellac is dead easy to repair, but try and tell the customer that, they don't want to know about it and they don't want to have to get the repairman in every 6 months or so either. I dont think I would like to drink the secretions of beetles but ethanol cut to 40% mixed with your favourite flavour is quite drinkable, I did say ethanol and not methanol didn't I?

Cheers...Jeff

[AUSSIE]

Sorry Neiil, I'm new here and just misread the last post as Stinky being your name, howdy! ICheers...Jeff

OH boy oddjob Neil is a big guy too.Very kind and gentle though.I saw him having a meal the other day in a local pub.He had a scratchy,that won a mini ice cream,I think it was.He got up and gave it to a lady having a birthday party with some old friends.
But to call him stinky!!! and he owns this forum as well.PHEW you are looking for itYeh youd betta doa lota sucken now boy where abouts in Vic do you live?You better make it to geelong to help make some polish Hey?