Freedom of Speech and crazy laws

[Gingermick]

I was under the impression that democracies endorsed freedom of speech as one of their basic tenants. Having this crazed thought, it amazed me to see that in Germany an Australian bloke is set for trial and jail because of a view he holds.
Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland all have laws tat make it illegal to deny the holocaust and I'm rather surprised that America doesn't.
Now I'm not trying to start a discussion about the Jewish extermination, it just seems to me that the only thing that could be harmed by someone denying is another persons feelings. Where's the body? Interestingly, this bloke is gonna do five years if he doesn't recant; and this other mongrel 75 year old in Mackay who raped a 6 year old girl is only gonna do 6. (Different countries and laws but humanity has a categorical imperative to protect it's children IMHO)
I think I may have ADHD btw

[Sturdee]

I was under the impression that democracies endorsed freedom of speech as one of their basic tennets.

That's where you are wrong. I think only the USA has a guaranteed right to freedom of speech because it is written into their constitution, and no other democracy has that guaranteed right.

The general assumed freedom of speech is limited by the various laws of libel etc and as a result of the holocaust in Europe most EU countries have that law.

A good thing to IMO and it's a shame that we don't have such laws.

Others may disagree but we lived under the Nazi joke of their brutal and repressive occupation and very close friends of my family were carted of to the gas chambers and exterminated just because they were jews.

The thought that someone could deny that that didn't happen is abhorrent to me, and if they do let them rot in jail until they recant.


Peter.

[Greg Q]

I'm with Sturdee. Revisionists have a way of destroying the lessons of the past. The holocaust was too horrible to risk allowing lies to be voiced. Even the worst lies will be accepted as truth by some people, hence the injunction. Some truths are far too important to be denied.

The sentancing of criminals here is another matter...the courts seem to be unable or unwilling to attach real penalty to real crimes. (My last break-in was performed by a career criminal with over twenty convictions. How a person like that isn't doing life is a mystery to me.)

[mic-d]

I'm with Sturdee. Revisionists have a way of destroying the lessons of the past. The holocaust was too horrible to risk allowing lies to be voiced. Even the worst lies will be accepted as truth by some people, hence the injunction. Some truths are far too important to be denied.

That's just about exactly what I was going to say. Just look at the number of people who believe silly conspiracy theories, like Nasa faked the moon landings.
The only thing I would say is that some use a narrow description of the holocaust to mean only the persecution of Jews by the Nazi's, which may diminish the fact that the Nazis killed almost as many again from other cultural, social and genetic backgrounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

Cheers
Michael

[switt775]

That's just about exactly what I was going to say. Just look at the number of people who believe silly conspiracy theories, like Nasa faked the moon landings.
The only thing I would say is that some use a narrow description of the holocaust to mean only the persecution of Jews by the Nazi's, which may diminish the fact that the Nazis killed almost as many again from other cultural, social and genetic backgrounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

Cheers
Michael

Excellent point. We all know about the Jews, because of sheer numbers. But this was a crime against anyone who did not fit the Nazi ideal, or who opposed their ideology. It was a crime against humanity, and should never be forgotton, nor should we allow anyone to deny it publicly.

[AlexS]

Perhaps we need an offence of 'Public lying', making it an offence to promulgate falsehoods.
Guess a few politicians would have to change their ways.

[Gra]

A good thing to IMO and it's a shame that we don't have such laws.

Others may disagree but we lived under the Nazi joke of their brutal and repressive occupation and very close friends of my family were carted of to the gas chambers and exterminated just because they were jews.

The thought that someone could deny that that didn't happen is abhorrent to me, and if they do let them rot in jail until they recant.


Peter.

Im with Sturdee. My family was lucky they were in this country so the Nazi's werent an issue as such for them (They were more worried about the japanese), but my wifes family were lucky to survive the era unscathed (Though her grandparents wouldnt talk of the period). I have visited the site of auswitch (?), and anybody that has been there and can deny something bad happened at that place has something wrong with their head. The place is dead, even the wildlife aviods it, and I was brought up to notice things like that as a warning sign. It is a very insettleing place to be, I have never felt that anywhere else that I have travelled.

Lock up anybody that trys to deny the happening, while they are at it, can we extend that rule to Japan?

[sawdustmike]

As much as I find these type of people abhorrent, I think they should be allowed to speak. Then all these morons will be out in public for all to see rather than outlawing them and making them go underground and becoming more subversive. Just because we make it against the law it wont ( and hasn't) stopped people or organisations preaching their drivel. And if we try to stop this type of speech what do we stop next?

[damian]

There are separate issues here.

The only right guaranteed under the Australian constitution is free trade across state lines. The federal court has upheld the right to free speech being "implied" in the constitution. The constitution specifically states that only the federal government may raise taxes but that has been ignored and sidestepped for decades and more blatantly every passing year.

The US constitution does NOT grantee the right to free speech. It is guaranteed under a separate related document, the bill of rights, along with the right to bear arms and many other things. Laws are tiered, with the constitution at the top, legislation, common law and council by laws at the bottom. I suspect both the australian and US constitutions are avilaible online if you care to have a read.

The morality of free speech and how it's used, and the awful injustice in the legal system are separate issues.

Queenslanders will note that nearly every week Captain Bligh is increasing police powers in this state, all for use against us, not "real" criminals. The latest is the right to enter and search private property on suspicion of underage drinking. So if you've got kids and alcohol on the same property or police have the suspicion of that being the case they basically have cart blanch now to rape and pillage their way through your home. Good eh ?

[Sturdee]

The US constitution does NOT grantee the right to free speech. It is guaranteed under a separate related document, the bill of rights, along with the right to bear arms and many other things.

Although I don't want to change the subject from the main issue, and that is the denial of the holocaust, you are wrong as the so called Bill of Rights actually are the first 10 amendments to their constitution and thus part of their constitution.


Peter.

[jerryc]

Perhaps this discussion should not bog itself down on the legal right to free speech, but the moral right.
I was a child in the Second World War and endured being bombed for three years in the dock area of south east London. It left me with no love for the Nazi system. Before there were safeguards about what children should see, I remember -vividly- seeing newsreel shots of Belsen concentration camp. I firmly believe the Holocaust took place.
As much as I consider that to deny the Holocaust is, at best historically not tenable, and at worst comes close to being an action to incite racism, However, I uphold the right of any man to say what he believes,.Remember McCarthyism in the USA? Fear ruled then in the land of the free and the home of the brave.
If statements and beliefs are out in the open then they can be countered. To threaten a person with five years jail is the wrong thing to do, all it achieves is to make such a person a martyr to others of the same ilk..

Jerry

[Vernonv]

In regard limiting free speech (especially with jail terms), who gets to decide what we are and are not allowed to believe and openly talk about ... were does it stop ... it must be remembered that the Nazis were into limiting free speech (albeit to an extreme).

If some fool wants to say the holocaust never happened (or any other such rubbish), let him/her ... it will only hurt you if you let it.

[Gra]

I believe that a lot of these law were brought in because there was a rash of right wing politicians in Europe claiming that the holocaust didn't happen, and to stop them running and to stop the idea taking shape, they outlawed the denial of the events.

Just something to think about. A lot of Japanese think they were defending themselves in WW2, as that is what they were taught in schools. It doesn't take long for the facts to be distorted if the govt wants them to be

[damian]

Peter, quite right. I should have gone and looked at it before I posted.

[Vernonv]

I believe that a lot of these law were brought in because there was a rash of right wing politicians in Europe claiming that the holocaust didn't happen, and to stop them running and to stop the idea taking shape, they outlawed the denial of the events.

But until they "act out" it's somewhat preemptive to make what they believe in (and talk about) illegal. I tend to agree with previous posters - I would rather have the nut jobs in the open, than drive them underground.

Just something to think about. A lot of Japanese think they were defending themselves in WW2, as that is what they were taught in schools. It doesn't take long for the facts to be distorted if the govt wants them to be

I wonder if anyone in Japan spoke out about what really happened ... maybe they didn't feel they had the freedom of speak openly.

I think when you start making expressed thoughts illegal, it becomes a slippery slope, that ultimately favors those in power, and is to the detriment of the many.