Newbie sanding confusion

[Mnb]

Hi everyone. I'm Mary from the Dandenongs outside Melbourne.

I started woodworking two years ago but had a break of about 3 months and for the last 7 or 8 months I have been stopping and starting because of illness. (Two root canals during which I was up and down. I was still sick and insisted on both being removed to find an abscess at the top of one. That was two months ago and I'm still not better. Going to lots of specialists etc. Sorry, it's driving me crazy)

I haven't learnt two years worth of knowledge is the point. I started from absolutely no idea of square or saws or how to use a power drill. I have an Ozito table saw and router I was given and have bought a Ryobi random orbit sander. After a lot of learning about the basics I started making mitred boxes. I was so focused on the box bit that I didn't do any finish sanding or finishing at first and it has lagged behind my box skill.
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So. The question is; I don't seem to get the same results with the random orbit sander as I can by hand sanding. Is that normal?

And; I read things that say -
mark/draw on the surface with a pencil and you have sanded enough at that grit when it's gone (haven't found that)
Scratches are invisible to the eye after 180 grit blah blah (haven't found that)
The Ytube videos seem to have people just sanding up the grits (fairly briefly) with a ROS and that's that, but even after eliminating many problems and mistakes with my sanding I don't get the results I want that way

How good do many people aim to get the wood?

Possibly
(I think it's going to vary. The boxes I have made are fairly small and a scratch the same size will look bigger on a smaller pieces.)

[Christos]

Welcome to the forum.

I think you will find that not everyone enjoys sanding and I am only guessing that the youtube videos are brief because of that or they have been edited. Who wants to watch people sanding, I think it is comparable to watching paint dry.

I can not comment on the ROS as I don't own one as all my sanding on flat surfaces is done by hand. I normally sand with the following grits, 120, 180, 240, 320 and I might go a little higher to 400 but that is not very common for me. You can add more grits between the 120 and 320 but for me it does not suit doing that.

There are of course rougher grits of 80 and it you start with this the scratches are normally noticeable by the eye. You will need to spend more time on the 120 to remove the scratches from the 80 grit. I don't discount this grit from my shed it is just not used on flat work very often if at all. I have used it on pieces that I had turned on the lathe but that's a whole different story.

To use a pencil as an indication of where you have sanded and what needs to still be sanded is not a bad thing. You basically hold the pencil lightly on the end and rub this over the surface. No need to press down on the surface as you will be giving yourself more work to remove the pencil lines.

My aim for the surface of the wood is to get this as smooth as I possibly can. Once the finish is applied it makes it very difficult to remove scratches as you basically have to remove the finish and start sanding again.

You might find that on some occasion it would be nice to raise the grain before the final sanding grit. I have used a spray bottle filled with water or sanding sealer when turning a piece on the lathe. I spray the surface with a mist of water and once this has dried I will sand the surface again at the last grit used for me it would normally be 240grit.

[Rod Gilbert]

Hi Mary welcome to the forum,
Sanding is I my opinion the least enjoyable part to wood working but it is a necessary chore and needs the same dedication as any other aspect of the job the use of pencil as an indicator is simply to show you have covered the whole area with the current grit (something that becomes second nature after a bit of experience) it's removal doesn't mean all the scratches from the previous grit have been removed. You should not go to the next grit until all deeper scratch marks from previous courser grit are removed then each subsequent grit only has to remove the marks of the last pass. Each time you change grit you should only be sanding marks from the last pass, you will never remove a sanding mark left from a 120 pass with 240 or higher you have to go back to 180 and remove before going up.(hope this makes some sense)
Regards Rod.

[LGS]

Hi Mary,

Welcome to the forums. I don't have a problem sanding at all. The reward is seeing and feeling the change in the timber, prior to finishing with you choice of Oil or Shellac or any other finish you desire.

You can try my sanding regimen which can be found at Damn Fine Furniture. Here you will see a method for oiling timber and, more imoportantly, a sanding protocol. The sanding method can be used with most finishes as you can stop anywhere you are happy with the smoothness and lack of scratches. You can have a look at it and see how you go with just the grits up to and including the 400g. (before adding the finish itself. If you find this isn't working for you, I am happy to visit and set the system up for you. You can send me a PM (personal Message) which you shall be able to use once you receive your confirmation.

Regards,

Rob

[cava]

If you find this isn't working for you, I am happy to visit and set the system up for you. You can send me a PM (personal Message) which you shall be able to use once you receive your confirmation.

This is what I like about this forum.

Kudos Rob.

[malb]

Lots of good info and offers of help here but one thing that hasn't been mentioned is some surface prep before assembly. Ideally you want to do as much as possible of the preparation before assembly, or even before the final cut to size if possible. And maybe try and get a decent surface on the material before you start sanding, which would involve planing and possibly scraping. Mary hasn't said what timber she is using or where she is sourcing it, but basic dressed all round timber from a green shed or similar is probably not going to to be ready to finish with just a light general sanding, and would need a reasonable amount of prep before hand.

[LGS]

It's my standard procedure to prepare all faces of a piece of timber before touching the assembly process. How I do that is unimportant here, you can be assured that it is done. There are other circumstances here which may preclude using hand planes, electrical planes and even scrapers. It's been my experience that my means of surface preparation provides a surface second to none for the next step. There are a number of people both on this forum and not who have used my system and I have had no complaints. None.

Just my two cents.

[woodPixel]

LGS's tips on hard burnishing are bang-on. They proved very helpful to me when I was struggling with it.

As for normal sanding, I found two things are important - dust extraction and good sandpaper.

Expensive isnt good, but good isnt cheap... the stuff sold at Bunnings is as close to junk as one can get for fine woodworking. The SandPaperMan sells some outstanding product. Try to have a look around and grab a smaller multipack to give it a go.

Also, hook the sander up to a dust vacuum, it will perform much better. The dust clags up the grit and reduces its lifespan and functionality quite considerably.

[Luke Maddux]

The simple answer is "Yes, hand sanding gives a better finish". But it's not so simple...

A Random Orbital Sander (ROS) abrades the wood randomly, which means both across and along the grain. It does it so much, so quickly, that it comes very very close to hiding its own sanding marks. It is superior to hand sanding in that it will remove the sanding marks from each previous grit more quickly and efficiently.

But eventually, you reach the desired level of smoothness (often 400 grit for many people) and you are done with the ROS. At this point, if you hand sand along the direction of the grain of the wood, you will improve the visual quality of the finish by even further hiding/disguising the sanding marks left by the ROS.

So hand sanding gives a better finish, but it's a longer road to get there. An efficient approach is to use the ROS to your desired final grit and to then hand sand with the grain with just that grit.

Cheers,
Luke

[LGS]

I disagree, Luke, it's possible to sand to 4000 grit quite easily using the right ROS either Festool, or even better Mirka. They use grits a lot higher than our little toys when finishing car duco. If you have a ROS, I suggest you go to a Festool store and invest in some 2000 and 4000 grit pads and see how your finishing comes up. Do it against the hand sanded stuff and time yourself to see which takes less time as well!

[Mnb]

Thanks guys. I have had so many problems and thought I had worked things out so many times (sometimes to think I was wrong about the issue and discover that I was right but there was another problem as well) that I am losing perspective.

I didn't sand well enough initially and the deep scratches were still there later.
I used crappy Bunnings sandpaper and made my own scratches.
I sanded on a scratched combination belt/disk sander and created my own scratches.
I started too coarse on surfaced timber and created my own scratches. (I hadn't got it before)
Got impatient and scrubbed at the wood. Yes my own scratches again!
And during all that I wasn't sanding until I finished putting together the bloody boxes.

I have used tassie oak only.

i haven't checked out the links but will.

How do I prep wood? I have no jointer or thicknesser. I did set up a power planer sideways against my bench to get the edge to ninety degrees and then I use the cheap table saw. I sanded 120 with the Ros I have now on the last two and then hand sanded after the box is together. I have been using the wet and dry sandpaper because it seems better but it's expensive. They look reasonable but I am using the surfaced wood which is easier.

A problem with the sander is keeping the wood a consistent thickness is difficult. Maybe I need more practice?

I want to ask more but my brain isn't working so I will leave it at the moment.

[Mnb]

Thanks for explaining the pencil thing too.

[Mnb]

Looked at the sanding regime. I guess going up and back even with a sander is better. The fibres are less likely to be pulled out to the side. I will try and let you know. Thanks.

I did a bit of reading on wood and logically the best thing seems like a scraper because it cuts the fibre at a level. Do you guys use scrapers? I have tried but perhaps didn't sharpen properly because it gave me a few nasty scratches even though most of the surface was good.

[Sturdee]

I don't know if in your research you ever saw the TV series " Woodworking Masterclass" by Steve Hay originally shown on Channel 31. In the second series he showed how to make some boxes. Over a number of episodes he goes over the whole process from beginning to end.

If you haven't it is worth looking at the show and here is the link to them.

Peter.

[Luke Maddux]

I disagree, Luke, it's possible to sand to 4000 grit quite easily using the right ROS either Festool, or even better Mirka. They use grits a lot higher than our little toys when finishing car duco. If you have a ROS, I suggest you go to a Festool store and invest in some 2000 and 4000 grit pads and see how your finishing comes up. Do it against the hand sanded stuff and time yourself to see which takes less time as well!

Which part are you disagreeing with? The parenthetical statement about 400 grit paper being a good stopping point for many people?

The grit to which people sand is just a matter of preference and, beyond a certain point, semantics. Sure, you can sand to 4000 grit with a sander, and it might look (and would certainly feel) better than 400, but if you then take the 4000 grit paper and rub it along the grain, it's going to further improve the finish. The point of my statement was that no matter how far you sand with an orbital, you can further improve the finish by then sanding along the grain with whatever your preferential final grit was on the sander.

Surely you don't disagree with that? That's widely accepted sanding philosophy... right?