Basic home wiring

[boban]

Quote:
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Golden Member


Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mid North Coast
Age: 53
Posts: 525
Electrical Forum

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In the Basic Home Wiring thread which was wisely closed I mentioned in Post 63 the dangerous situation I encountered when a DIY electrician placed power and light fittings on the same circuit. I received three responses, only one of which from Barry_White mentioned the Australian Standard. The others seemed to suggest that a common circuit was a good idea without qualifying the statement by saying that the circuit should be isolated by a separate circuit breaker. In my case the circuit was supplied with a common wire from a powerpoint in the bedroom above. This is clearly illegal but anyone reading the replies to my post, without adequate knowledge, would believe it to be ok to combine power and light feeds without a circuit breaker.If the thread is to remain I don't think these posts should stay there. Ambiguous information is dangerous in a 240v environment and maybe a ban on technical information in the forum is required.


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I feel the above post is plain wrong.

Why?

Anyone reading the thread would know that a mixed circuit is legal even if it is taken off a bedroom powerpoint provided that the there are no more than 3 GPO's on the circuit etc. There is nothing in any post by Adrian that suggests that the wiring is illegal.

Even the two pieces of advice that didn't quote the AS would not leave a person thinking I can do anything I like.

The light and GPO is protected by a circuit breaker. Whether it is overloaded is at this stage unknown, even by Adrian it would seem. Yet he is quite prepared to criticize the DIY sparky (i'm guessing that he is assuming this to be the case) who did the work without the complete set of facts (or at least not posting them).

The unqualified statements where simply addressed to the possibility of a mixed circuit, nothing else.

As you are no doubt aware, I think discussion of the Standards is a good thing. Anyone reading that thread properly, would know that the AS provides for a mixed circuit and the maximum load. How is that a bad thing?

In my opinion, Adrian put his foot in it as he clearly didn't know that a mixed circuit was legal, yet had a go the person who installed it. His last post was just an attempt to justify his attack and try and get his foot out of his mouth.

[adrian]

Wow, it's open again. Time to have my right of reply to Boban's deleted thread before it gets closed again. I accept the fact that I wasn't clear enough in my original post when I told of the incompetence of a DIY electrician. The details I missed in the original post was that the combined circuit was run from a powerpoint in the room above. I should have also placed in the post that I know combined circuits (legally installed) are quite ok because I have one in a detached granny flat. I wrongly assumed that everyone would take it as read that I was referring to illegal wiring. SORRY, I should have said that. I sent PMs to the 3 people who originally responded to that post and clarified the situation. Which I'm sure was accepted by them.
Then Boban starts his rant and tells us that combined circuits are legal even if they originate from a bedroom powerpoint. After reading his new thread I called three electricians to clarify the situation and they all said that it was illegal and dangerous. One correctly pointed out that it placed his life in danger if he were to work on it without knowing the situation and would void my household insurance if there was an electrical fire.
Boban's information is dead wrong. No-one should ever connect a light fitting to a powerpoint unless such a combined circuit has a separate feed from a power board with it's own breaker/fuse. It also has to be designated as such so that anyone working in that location knows that pulling the fuse to the light circuit means that all light fittings in that location will still remain live.
Although not a licenced electrician, I have been a technician for 30 years and apply common sense to these types of situations. Boban should do likewise and not post information that could get someone killed.
Play the last post guys.

[boban]

This is the PM I got from Adrian

You really need to check your facts before you decided to personally attack someone. I have a legal shared circuit in a detached granny flat. The circuit is legal because it ORIGINATES FROM THE SWITCHBOARD and is designated as such.
The circuit in my room downstairs originates from a powerpoint and is not only illegal, it's criminally stupid. If anyone installs such a circuit that results in someone getting electrocuted they can be charged with manslaughter.
I've consulted three electricians and they all advise that it's illegal and must be rectified to conform to the standard. It would also void my household insurance in the event of an electrical fire. Your post was dangerous and I'm not surprised that it is to be deleted.


This was my reply


As I said, no-where in your posts did you day that you had consulted 3 sparkies. You seem to be making it up as you go along.

Now you say that you knew you could have a mixed circuit. This knowledge is not evident in your first and subsequent posts.

Your lack of knowledge is quite evident in that you think that you cannot take off power from behind a another GPO. You will find that that is how your whole house is wired. They all originate from the switchboard.

Only if the total number of GPO's and total load exceeds the AS specification will the circuit be deemed to be illegal. The only way a sparky would know that to be the case is to personally inspect the circuit. Again, you haven't said this. You could even do this yourself if you knew how and it would not be illegal to do so.

Your circuit may well be illegal. I dont know, but the information you have posted does not lead to that undeniable conclusion. You criticised on the basis of mixed circuits existing. Plain and simple.

I didn't want either thread to be closed so that you could respond in open. I even sent a PM to Ozwinner to that effect.

I'm quite happy to debate this in open.

As to me checking my facts, I'm relying solely on what you posted, nothing more, nothing less. If you want to add some new facts then do so.



I even went to the trouble of cutting and pasting the relevant posts in chronological order so that you can make up your own minds.

[Cliff Rogers]

This thread is likely to be closed again if you continue the 'hesaid/shesaid' slanging match.

There is no points to be gain in having a slanging match.

A heated discussion on the topic is fine, you can even disagree but if you start personal attacks, it will be shut down again I'm sure.

[Wood Butcher]

This thread is likely to be closed again if you continue the 'hesaid/shesaid' slanging match.

No, it was opened by higher powers to see who will win the pissing contest.

There is no points to be gain in having a slanging match.

Nope, could get you a few reddies though.

A heated discussion on the topic is fine, you can even disagree but if you start personal attacks, it will be shut down again I'm sure.

If any thread resorts to personal attacks or abusive language, the offenders will be reprimanded.

[boban]

Then Boban starts his rant and tells us that combined circuits are legal even if they originate from a bedroom powerpoint.

Dont misquote me. What I said is quite clear. No circuit originates from a powerpoint.

After reading his new thread I called three electricians to clarify the situation and they all said that it was illegal and dangerous.

Boban's information is dead wrong.

Exactly how is it wrong. All I ever did was refer to the fact that the AS provides for it and that you got it wrong. You just cant accept that.

You now say that you were aware of mixed circuits but previously said this:

I'm amazed and confused. Are there any conditions on where this circuit can exist. Is this allowed in the same building. I can't see the point in requiring separate Power and Light circuit breakers and then allowing people to mix them up. Could you clarify.

You can just keep adding info if you like. The simple fact is that anyone reading those three posts would know exactly what the requirements were for a mixed circuit. To me that is not "dangerous".

Those that think I got it wrong or posted anything dangerous, then Im willing to hear from you. I'll eat humble pie if its warranted.

[Malibu]

Hell... I just want to know did he get his power points put in or not???

[outback]

Fair dinkum, I got sent to the naughty corner and given an official reprimand for less than this. :confused:

I think everyone needs a bex and a little lie down, best not in a bedroom with a powerpoint though.

[adrian]

Maybe there's an electrician on the board who can put him right because it's getting a little tedious. But I'll have one more try.
A common circuit starts from the point at which it connects to the power conductor. If that power conductor is on a powerpoint it's illegal and dangerous. It has to be separately fused. I can't say it any plainer than that. If at a later stage one of the lights on this circuit gets connected back to the rest of the house ie: both ends of the common feed, it will form a permanent bridge between the power and light circuits and pulling either circuit breaker will leave the powerpoints and lights still live because of the bridge. Anyone who follows his advice could lose a house or a life.
It's not anything as childish as a pissing competition or a test of wills. It's all about correcting information that's dangerously wrong.

[Cliff Rogers]

... If at a later stage one of the lights on this circuit gets connected back to the rest of the house ie: both ends of the common feed, it will form a permanent bridge between the power and light circuits and pulling either circuit breaker will leave the powerpoints and lights still live because of the bridge. Anyone who follows his advice could lose a house or a life.......

Where was that posted, I must have missed it?

[Wood Butcher]

That makes two of us Cliff.

[Dan]

How about a drawing?

[boban]

Maybe there's an electrician on the board who can put him right because it's getting a little tedious. But I'll have one more try.
A common circuit starts from the point at which it connects to the power conductor. If that power conductor is on a powerpoint it's illegal and dangerous. It has to be separately fused. I can't say it any plainer than that. If at a later stage one of the lights on this circuit gets connected back to the rest of the house ie: both ends of the common feed, it will form a permanent bridge between the power and light circuits and pulling either circuit breaker will leave the powerpoints and lights still live because of the bridge. Anyone who follows his advice could lose a house or a life.
It's not anything as childish as a pissing competition or a test of wills. It's all about correcting information that's dangerously wrong.

I'm not giving any advice. I'm saying that the 3 posts abouts common circuits are not dangerous.

Now to address you directly on this mythical common feed. Why would anyone form a bridge from one light to another that is already connected. You really are clutching at straws. That would apply to any bridge between circuits. But that would be plain stupid.

Your powerpoints will be connected together on each of the respective circuits. All will be fed from the mains hopefully through a RCD then through an MCB then to your first powerpoint(s). It is then like a chain from one powerpoint to another. By going off one of these powerpoints you are simply extending that circuit not creating a new one. The circuit starts at the switchboard and ends at the last powerpoint.

If you decide to overload that circuit then thats another matter.

Dont confuse the issue or pretend this is about safety. Its about you saving face.

Read and follow those three posts carefully and you will have no problem.

Lets see how many sparkies tell me Im wrong Adrian.

[boban]

Where was that posted, I must have missed it?

That is just an extremely unlikely hypothetical.

[adrian]

I know when I'm licked. It's true what they say about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing. No amount of arguement is going to change your mind. Go ahead and do what you want and I'll do what I want based on the advice of people who know what they are talking about.
I can definitely hear the last post playing.
PS. The electrician is coming next week to rewire my room downstairs. I was going to leave it on the backburner but this discussion has prodded me into action. At least I can thank you for that.