Electrics & Plumbing - What Am I Allowed To Do?

[DavidG]

Just a scenario:

Suppose
1. I worked for a Gov dept responsible for control of wiring.

2. I read this forum.

3. I asked the owner of board for the Email address and IP address of certain respondents.

4. I traced the street address of the respondents through their internet supplier.

Who would have a worried look when I came to inspect their wiring.

[journeyman Mick]

1. Yes it's a regulated industry....................

........................I'd like one of you to be a test case, admit to having installed a power point, submit the paperwork on your own behalf and then test in the courts your right to do so in your own house.
Cheers.

Cauterise, welcome aboard, and thank you for a very complete and insightful commentary on this long running debate. I reckon it would have to rate as one of the best first posts.

Mick

[MurrayD99]

Cauterise, welcome aboard, and thank you for a very complete and insightful commentary on this long running debate. I reckon it would have to rate as one of the best first posts.

Mick

Well put!

[MrFixIt]

Hi

You might be the solid gold, shyte hot workman that you say you are, I don't know

Thank you for the compliment

[Cauterise]

ChrisP - Bloody Victoria! Bloody bureacrats.

Website you refer to is here - http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/ForElectri...0/Default.aspx

All I can suggest is to keep trying, put your request in writing, rather than over the phone, and state your experience, quals etc. If no luck, threaten them with an appeal to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal - sometimes the stick approach works.

And as for being excluded from the test, get them to put that in writing too. Seems to me to be farcical - what's the point of having the test requirement if you can't sit it?

In other states where I have worked (Tas, WA & Qld) it seems to be a much more friendly approach - ie recognise that you have the theory & skills and if you're willing to be tested for compliance, then you get the permit.

[Sturdee]

Just a scenario:

Suppose
1. I worked for a Gov dept responsible for control of wiring.

2. I read this forum.

3. I asked the owner of board for the Email address and IP address of certain respondents.

4. I traced the street address of the respondents through their internet supplier.

Who would have a worried look when I came to inspect their wiring.

Wouldn't be surprised if that happens sooner then later the way this debate on flouting the laws keeps on going on.


BTW those who want to do some wiring part themselves under an electrician supervision better make sure that they agree with the electrician as to what and how they do it.

My electrician friend was recently called out to check and finish of a job after some wiring work had been done by the homeowner.

He saw that some of that wiring was behind plaster and some in conduits, because he couldn't see and inspect all the wiring he refused and quoted on replacing all the wiring already done by the homeowner.

As his quote wasn't accepted he reported the matter to the Office of Electrical Safety, as he was required to do, and the same day the power company disconnected the supply because of illegal wiring.

A full and complete inspection and certification by an electrician was required to get the power back on. Hence no cost savings.

Peter.

[silentC]

Thank you for the compliment

You're welcome But don't be offended if I don't get you over to do my next wiring job

[chrisp]

Wouldn't be surprised if that happens sooner then later the way this debate on flouting the laws keeps on going on.

Most of the debate has been on the reason for the regulation.

BTW those who want to do some wiring part themselves under an electrician supervision better make sure that they agree with the electrician as to what and how they do it.

Good idea. If the story is true and complete (but I find it a bit hard to believe the story as it stands - most wiring is covered in one way or another), I'd suggest that people also give Sturdee's electrician friend wide berth.

[silentC]

Most of the debate has been on the reason for the regulation.

Unfortunately, yes, despite my best efforts

Still waiting for that thread: Do you think the regulations preventing unlicensed people from doing their own wiring should be revoked?

[chrisp]

Still waiting for that thread: Do you think the regulations preventing unlicensed people from doing their own wiring should be revoked?

Done - see "Polls"

[bricks]

The Electrical & Gas industry is run by the O.T.R - Office of the Technical Regulator.

Little known fact about the O.T.R - They are the only government department in this country which is not funded by the government.

The liscence fees that Gasfitters and Electricians pay in this counrty go solely to the O.T.R for 100% or their funding. This is why regular tradies pay a liscence fee and Contractors pay a contractors fee ( which is higher) Because contractors also have to pay for the inspections that will be done on their work from time to time.
The problem with Un-liscenced people doing any work in Liscenced trades is that their work will NEVER be inspected until something goes wrong. Therein lies the problem- how do you ensure compliance on a DIY job, no-body knows it even exists?

Their should be an Avenue for home owners to do their own work- by submitting an "intention to carry out work" form followed up by a mandatory inspection which would have to be paid for- probably at an hourly rate for the inspector- or certified by a contractor who inspects the work at each stage. Why would DIYers need to pay for the inspections- because all tradesmen pay for them- thats what our liscence fees are for.

Of course DIY cowboys would not get the mandatory inspections to save a few bucks and now we are back to square one.

How the hell do you regulate a DIY industry where IMO most of the peanuts who do the dodgy work believe they are above the law and therefore are not going to comply with anything- Those types of people probably dont even register on a forum like this because they couldn't give a rats a%^$ what anyone else thinks. Like those clowns that ask "can i do this" and someone replys "no you cant its illegal" they then go on to argue the point why it "is legal and they are doing it anyway" why even ask the question, is it just so you can stick it up a tradie?

In summary ( sorry for the rant) Theres no way to regulate a DIY industry that doesn't want to be regulated - if you dont submitt the correct forms , high chance is you won't be caught unless you kill someone or wreck property. - and yes liscenced trades need to be regulated for saftey and compliance, We all hear no end the amount of liscenced trades doing dodgy& dangerous things. Imagine the DIY disaster.

What really gets me going is cowboys contracting out to an un-suspecting public without a liscence or the training.

My two cents and a bit more.

http://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov.../about_us.html

[Tas_Dean]

The Electrical & Gas industry is run by the O.T.R - Office of the Technical Regulator.
<SNIP>
What really gets me going is cowboys contracting out to an un-suspecting public without a liscence or the training.

My two cents and a bit more.

Well said, all of it, including what I cut out!

Is their really people contracting out without any licenses?

Here in Tasmania, all advertising done by electricians must include their contractors license number. This includes Yellow Pages, the signs on their vehicles and workshops, everything. It's not uncommon to see contractors license numbers on their job adds (where the business has advertised their name, obviously not if they only list replies to a PO box), although I'm not sure whether the OTR will push the issue that far on job adds.
Many electrical contractors have been fined for omitting this number from adds, so obviously it is checked upon.

I know apprentices and etc do "cashies", but I haven't really heard of unlicensed people advertising. Maybe some people that advertise as "handyman" services overstep the mark somewhat.

[JDarvall]

Do the DIY,s know the rules and understand the risks of doing it themselves?
How do they know that it was wired correctly in the first place?
How do they know that the circuit is dead before they work on it?(Leaving the light on and pulling the fuse and watching the light go out doesn't guarantee that everything is dead.)
Do they have the appropriate test equipment to test for dead?
Do they have appropriate test equipment to test the insulation resistance and do they know what the minimum insulation resistance is and how to test for it?
Do they know what the maximum earth resistance is and how to test for it?
Do they know what the maximum number of points allowable on a particular circuit is and the correct cable size for the protection?
Do they know about correct earthing requirements?
If the DIY'er answers no to any of these questions (and dozens more) then they probably shouldn't be doing the job themselves as a licensed electrician should know the answer and should not only make sure that the item that he is working on is installed correctly but also that the rest of the circuit is safe and up to standards. Remember that just because the power point works or the light switches on does not mean that the job has been done safely and up to standards.
I am only posting this as i have seen quite a few DIY jobs that have been extremely dangerous.
.

I don't know. I'm an idiot.

ok, a hypooothetical situation .....say I've got a new switch in my hand from bunnings.. ....and on the wall in front of me is an old switch thats worked everyday up till recently and I want to replace it so I can turn the hall light on again....tell me where I could have killed myself.

I went out to the box and turned the power off. The whole house goes dead. All the lights off. The misses screams out........Clearly its off like every other time I've done it.

But I check to ensure its off with one of those voltage pens from dick smiths that I tested prior to turning the power off anyway. The pen doesn't light up, nothings getting power

I unscrew the thing, pull it out from the wall. Touch the wires and sigh a relief that I'm still alive..... There's 3 wires going into it. two of the wires are bound together in the same terminal. just two terminals. I think ' well the switch must close/open these terminals to the light. ' .......I disconnect the terminals. check for a continuity test with my dick smiths multimeter on the old switch . I check the multimeters set right...uno..beeps when I cross the sticks . When I flick the switch, I realise that its not beeping at all in either switch position..........ie. the switch is not closing the circuit. Its stuffed.

So , how do I know which way the wires go on the new switch that I'm about to install ? Well same check on the new switch to find out which terminals open/close when I switch and just use those terminals. Doesn't matter which is which as long as I use those two. I mean, so I assume.

screw it all up tight. Tug on the wires to check. Everything looks fine. Screw the new switch in the wall, turn the power back on ........and it works.

Was I lucky ? Where could have I killed myself. Am I killing my family if I do this.....As an electrician would have you considered things like .........

maximum earth resistance
maximum insulation resistance
scratching me balls
correct earthing requirements
maximum number of points
picked me nose
and the dozern others

.........
for a job like that..........

or would have you just picked up the efen switch and installed it just like I did and charged me $300 for it ? ... try and nock off a couple more jobs like that before lunch.

[bricks]

The first thing he would have checked is the globe and socket...( duh)
In the middle he would have checked for overloading of the circuit/switch...Also burnout and shorting....
The last thing he would have checked is the entire circuit... to ensure that there are no other hidden problems...( required by law)

[Tas_Dean]

And he certainly wouldn't have touched the wires. Treat them all as if they are live!

A hot neutral is a danger on light switches also.

The light up pens, whilst they are reasonable, I would not trust my life to one.