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Thread: Saw sharpening files 101
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8th June 2013, 01:21 PM #106
Anyone else I should send the survey to?
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8th June 2013, 02:03 PM #107
Joe Federici ... Joe Federici | Positive Rake
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8th June 2013, 03:41 PM #108
Have updated the survey image. Note that the one and only "Taper Lover" has found a mate.
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8th June 2013, 08:36 PM #109
WEBLINKS
Wikipedia - FILES
Nicholson File Filosophy
A Treatise on Files & Rasps
THREADS
Thread – METAL FILES 101
Thread – Triangular Files for Saws
Thread – LIOGIER FILES TESTING
Thread – CITRIC ACID CLEANING
MANUFACTURER’S SITES
Bahco – SAW FILES
Bahco – NEEDLE FILES
F.Dick – SAW FILES
F.Dick – NEEDLE FILES
Grobet USA
Grobet USA – SAW FIES PDF
Grobet USA – NEEDLE FILES
ICS Cutting Tools
Pferd
Vallorbe – manufacturer’s site (very little info)
BLOGS
Joe Federici
Matt Cianci
NorseWoodsmith
Paul Sellers on Bahco Files
RETAILERS – AUSTRALIA & NZ
Henry Eckert (Vallorbe, Adelaide)
House of Jewellery (pretty much under construction) (Vallorbe Needles, Sydney)
Jim Davey (Grobet USA, Nowra)
PPS Industries (Pferd stockists in NZ)
TOOLMART (Bahco in Perth)
RETAILERS – EUROPE
Dieter Schmid FINE TOOLS (F.Dick, Germany)
RETAILERS – USA
B2B Professional Tools (Vallorbe)
Lee Valley (Grobet SWISS)
Lie Nielsen (Grobet SWISS)
Tools For Working Wood (Grobet, not sure where from yet)
ANY MORE?
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8th June 2013, 08:45 PM #110
Summary of the thread so far
Here is a summary so far, as a Word document, and a PDF - the PDF links won't work(yeah, I know there's a way - too much work, and they're in the last post anyway).
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8th June 2013, 09:00 PM #111
THE TAPER BOYS ARE CLAWING BACK.....see post #105 for an update.
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8th June 2013, 10:58 PM #112
There are a bunch of old publications here ... The Evenfall Studios Woodworks Library
Saw Filing and Management of Saws
by Robert Grimshaw, 1882
Grimshaw On Saws
The History, Development, Action, Classification, And Comparison Of Saws Of All Kinds
by Robert Grimshaw, 1882
A Treatise on Files and Rasps
by The Nicholson File Company, 1878
American Swiss Swiss Pattern Files of Precision
by American Swiss File & Tool Company, 1941
Disston Lumberman's Handbook
containing a treatise on the construction of Saws and how to keep them in order
by Henry Disston & Sons, 1907
The Disston Saw, Tool & File Book
by Henry Disston & Sons, 1926
The Disston Saw, Tool & File Book
by Henry Disston & Sons, 1953
Nicholson The Guide to Files and Filing
by Cooper Hand Tools, 2006
Simonds Facts on Files
by Simonds International, 2006
The Art Of Saw-Filing
by H. W. Holly, 1864
The File It's History, Making, and Uses
by Henry Disston & Sons, 1921
The Saw In History
by Henry Disston and Sons, 1916
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Quite a few pages at wkfinetools also, from around the 1880-1900 sort of period.
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9th June 2013, 12:51 AM #113
For what its worth....I have always used a 6" Slim Taper. I was taught to use it many moons ago and have used nothing else. I find that at the start of the filing stroke the smaller end of the file can sit nicely into the gullet before you actually push the file through the stoke. (I hope that makes sense)
Once upon a time you could get 3 saws sharpened out of one file but now, using a Nicholson file (as that seems to be all one can get in Tamworth) you barely get one saw out of the file. The files are just not sharp enough!
At the WWShow in Brissy I picked up a few slim tapers (of unknown brand) just to give me some to go on with.
Brett I would be interested in some descent files if you come across them
I even file the teeth on my Fein Multisaw. The plate is hard and thin but with a new file you get a reasonably sharp blade when you are done. Save's money too, because the blades are not cheap to buyJust do it!
Kind regards Rod
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9th June 2013, 05:16 PM #114Senior Member
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- Glen Innes
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- 127
chambezio
i get my pferd flat files from a mob in tamworth seems reasonable to assume that they might be able to get you some taperscheers pat
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9th June 2013, 05:32 PM #115
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9th June 2013, 07:06 PM #116
Dieter Schmid seems to support Derek's statement when he describes their files as
- "... The precicion files made by VALLORBE GROBET have been developed along the needs of the watch makers industry in Switzerland. Today they set the standard for quality files. They are not only suited for metal work, but for fine woodworking too. The swiss files sold in Germany have the label Fr. Dick. The hardness is 66 - 67 HRC...."
Precision Files, Habilis Files - with Table of Cuts
Not sure whether this helps or confuses.
Still soaking up the debate !!
Fair Winds
Graeme
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9th June 2013, 07:54 PM #117
Japanese Files.......
An email came in this morning from someone who is using some Japanese files which are 3 Square (i.e. no toothed edges), and get this........no taper.........and he loves them. This is someone who knows what he's doing, and he says he can't imagine how a file could get better.
Now THAT sounds interesting!
He doesn't know who the maker is, and only deals through a broker (who may not want to reveal any info). I'm awaiting more info if I can get it.
Maybe an email to Schtoo will be in order.....
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9th June 2013, 08:25 PM #118
Brett I was having a look at the Habilis site Graeme posted and here is one of my arguments on square files/three sided files and sharp gullets. As I know it a recipe for disaster, lost teeth and cracked blades especially for those of us that work with good old Aussie hardwoods.
What is the difference between normal three-sided files and saw files?
Regular three-sided files have sharp corners that cut a hard angle. Saw files have corners that are ever so slightly rounded, so as to maintain the round gullet between the saw's teeth as one files them. This is to help prevent cracking the base of the teeth, which is easy to do if one does not work carefully and precisely. Because of technical issues in the manufacture of saw files, there is a limit to how small the files can be made. Therefore we, as recommended by Eddie Sirotich of Adria Tools, offer a small needle file to sharpen saws with extremely fine teeth. An alternative for very fine-toothed Western type saws is to use a small Japanese sword-form file, which also has a lightly rounded corner. But one must then file both the tooth's front edge and back separately. This in contrast to using the proper triangular file, which will file the front of one tooth and the back of the previous tooth on the same stroke.
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9th June 2013, 08:49 PM #119
Yes Claw, I think it comes down to the difficulty of manufacturing a file with <4mm face that has a rounded edge. Maybe it's just not possible. However look at this pic that Ian took of the Vallorbe Needle on the left (prolly a 4mm face), Liogier 4" EST (5mm face) in the middle, and some POS (not NOS) on the right. You can see pretty clearly that the Needle does indeed have cut edges.
Now have a look at these Liogier Needles, and the edges - they are quite clearly cut.
As I said in that post (#29 in this saga)
"The important thing to note is that the edge of the Needle has been cut - it is NOT a 3 Square (maybe it was supposed to be - dunno - but it's cut on the edge)."
and as I said in the email to Derek "there is a slight "bald" spot on one of the edges, but not significant"
Derek now has that file (or maybe not just yet), so it will be interesting to see what he makes of it, and whether or not it does the job required.
The point being: who cares if it was supposed to be 3 Square, it's not, as near as I can tell, and therefore should work. Neither does it have any great evidence of Double Cutting, as I also commented, so again the surface of the tooth should be pretty nice.
Now that I have heard from someone who is using non-tapered files I'm dead keen to get hold of some to send out to the two camps - those that can't be fagged about the taper, and those who can (such as yourself), for the same good old reason: What gives eh?
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9th June 2013, 09:42 PM #120Senior Member
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- Glen Innes
- Posts
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