Tradies you gotta love them

[Frank&Earnest]

Ok, let's have fun with another scenario.

Around 20 years ago I rearranged two rooms in the house. I had Axminster carpet laid throughout the house only a few years before so when I moved the kitchen and put parquetry in one room I discarded the kitchen vynil and replaced it with the carpet from the other room.

Picked a maintenance firm from the yellow pages and asked whether they would send somebody out to relay the carpet. My wife hardly spoke any English, so I had to handle all these things over the phone in my lunch time. The guy on the other side of the phone says "you would be better off getting somebody from the ads in the local paper (going rate at the time would have ben less than $100 for the whole job), we charge the princely sum of $50 per hour". We agreed that a couple of hours would be about right for the job, taking into account a bit of cutting and pasting to fit the carpet to the smaller room, so I told them to go ahead.

The guy came on a saturday, so I was home to see what happened.
He had with him an "apprentice" i.e. a young kid who just helped him detach and carry the carpet to the other room and then sweeped the bare cement. He did not touch anything afterward and just stood in a corner watching. Fine with me because I could see that the job was done properly by the tradesman.

The guy then proceeded extremely slowly with the job, taking a smoko every half hour, making numerous phone calls and taking over an hour for lunch. It was obvious he was wasting time hoping to be called for some other job that was not coming. I realise that he is trying to milk the job as much as possible but I do not complain because I assume he will charge working (albeit not effectively) time, not expended time. At this point he must have assumed that I was the sweetest SUCKER he had ever met.

The bill comes in: $50 an hour for TWO people for SIX hours plus materials = $600 plus materials.

What would you have done?

[autogenous]

going rate at the time would have ben less than $100 for the whole job

So someone over the phone told you a job would take 2 hours? Very typical stab in the dark guesstimate.
The job is always "straight" forward isn't it or is it.

The tradesman made phone calls though out the day 20 years ago on a mobile phone? Yeah theyre the ones returning calls to all the whinging clients.

Do you own a company? So you buy shares in companies so they make profit? After all businesses are in the business of making money?

People complain with bias without contemplating the costs of running business mistaking it for wages. What do those mobile phone calls cost alone. Imagine you being employed for a day.

What sort of hourly rate would you want?

Maybe we should go on about my accountants bill @ $250 per hour or my lawyers fees @$450 p/h. Get over it!

[TomH]

This is proving to be quite an interesting thread.

And guess what - people don't like being let down. Whether it's the client changing his/her mind halfway through a job, or the tradie failing to call to tell them they are running late - no-one likes being stuffed around.

This is not just limited to the tradie/client interaction. Do people always answer every email you send at work? Probably not. Do they always deliver every project on-time on-budget. No. Do you win every job you pitch? No (funny that, if everyone gets 3 quotes it means on average you miss out on 2 out of every 3 jobs you quote on). Do you find some people hard to work with. Yes. Does your team (if you have one) always do the things you want them to, even though they know you are determining pay rises at the end of the year. No. And why not - you are paying them!!

I'm certain there are many disgruntled people out there who have dealt with tradies (or anyone else for that matter). I am also certain there are probably just as many tradies who are frustrated with clients. This will always be the case when we don't have highly detailed specifications with performance criteria. And even if we did we would still have these discussions.

I am also certain we are not going to solve it on this forum.

So maybe instead we should be asking people to refer a good tradie so we can give them our business. Then the ones with limited communication skills will go the way of many other small businesses.

Cheers,

Tom

[autogenous]

Tradies never get sick. They never hurt their backs, chop off toes. Their cars never break down. None of which they are paid for.

In fact some are ringing back clients at 8:00pm at night. Imagine waking at 5:00am then still being on the phone at 8 after doing a marathon of pushing 200 kilo wheelbarrows of cement through sand for 9 hours.

Honestly, if many "trades" worked out their hours with liability/expenses after receiving their "net" pay/earnings for the year from their accountant they would throw their tools in the sea and work at Bunnings, especially in a recession environment.

Actually I think many are, including seeking other wage jobs

[nev25]

Another scenario But Ive started it on its own thread as this one is getting off the track of the original
https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...706#post719706

[Jasey]

Tradies never get sick. They never hurt their backs, chop off toes. Their cars never break down. None of which they are paid for.

In fact some are ringing back clients at 8:00pm at night. Imagine waking at 5:00am then still being on the phone at 8 after doing a marathon of pushing 200 kilo wheelbarrows of cement through sand for 9 hours.

Honestly, if many "trades" worked out their hours with liability/expenses after receiving their "net" pay/earnings for the year from their accountant they would throw their tools in the sea and work at Bunnings, especially in a recession environment.

Actually I think many are, including seeking other wage jobs

Not exactly sure of your point here. Sensible clients are aware of these issues. Sensible clients appreciate them. Sensible clients also work and have frustrations in their jobs, what is new? Its not just you mate. What the SENSIBLE people are complaining about is the 70% of tradesman that you contact cold either just don't turn up, aren't interested or never call back.

No one begrudges someone making a quid. I've got a few tradies who I happily pay because they turn up and treat you with respect.

[autogenous]

Not exactly sure of your point here. Sensible clients are aware of these issues. Sensible clients appreciate them. Sensible clients also work and have frustrations in their jobs, what is new? Its not just you mate.

We are not talking about them. We're discussing the thread title. If people complain they get an answer.

What the SENSIBLE people are complaining about is the 70% of tradesman that you contact cold either just don't turn up, aren't interested or never call back.

Its in defense of the accusations. If the threads all read some people would have noticed the reason some trades don't ring back is:
A. They get 25 phone calls a day and returning calls is a costly exercise.
B. Trades do have issues to deal with like illness, too much work etc.

Not exactly sure of your point here. Sensible clients are aware of these issues.

The sensible people have to understand why their calls aren't returned and trades don't turn up.

Some of us like to get some work done during the day. Spending $30 that night returning the mobile calls isn't anyones idea of fun.

If its important enough they'll ring back.

The tradie has more than likely picked out the one sensible client and rang them back.

[Vernonv]

... reason some trades don't ring back is:
A. They get 25 phone calls a day and returning calls is a costly exercise.
B. Trades do have issues to deal with like illness, too much work etc.

They just sound like excuses to me. The bottom line is that tradies are running a business. When times are good, they can get away with giving bad service. It's when times are bad, that bad service comes back to bite them on the bum.

If you don't like the business you are in - change jobs, careers, businesses. Otherwise be prepared to reap what you sow.

[autogenous]

They just sound like excuses to me. The bottom line is that tradies are running a business. When times are good, they can get away with giving bad service. It's when times are bad, that bad service comes back to bite them on the bum.

I'm sure many have considered that.
Reality is. In many cases it means nothing.
What do you think that is considered in many cases when the work drops?
What over price? *pfft*
In the real world the above quote goes out the window. Welcome to the real world.

If you don't like the business you are in - change jobs, careers, businesses. Otherwise be prepared to reap what you sow.

Too right. Its happening at such a rate millions of tax dollars are being spent on advertising stemming the bleeding to attain new apprentices.
Thats where its ended up.

Don't take my word for it. Take a look. The current environment speaks for its self.

[Vernonv]

I'm sure many have considered that.
Reality is. In many cases it means nothing.
What do you think that is considered in many cases when the work drops?
What over price? *pfft*
In the real world the above quote goes out the window. Welcome to the real world.

Sure there is an element of truth in that, but I think you will find that people frequent businesses / tradies that they trust and that have given them good service in the past. Businesses/tradies that have a good reputation (for customer service) are much more likely to retain customers in the long term regardless of the economic situation.

Too right. Its happening at such a rate millions of tax dollars are being spent on advertising stemming the bleeding to attain new apprentices.
Thats where its ended up.

If demand for your services is so high then you should be able to charge more and provide people with the level of service they expect, while still making a decent profit. You should also then be able to be more selective of the customers you choose to deal with. Maybe tradies should be going for quality, not quantity?

[Sturdee]

At this point he must have assumed that I was the sweetest SUCKER he had ever met.

The bill comes in: $50 an hour for TWO people for SIX hours plus materials = $600 plus materials.

What would you have done?

I may be hard but I'm not a sucker, like those that allow themselves to be overcharged.

As you had a verbal agreement for $100 for the work to be done I would send them a cheque for the amount of $100 exactly together with a covering letter reminding them of the verbal agreement and if they wished to argue to the contrary I would be willing to hear such arguments in Court and advise them the name and address of my solicitor for service of documents.

It helps having worked for a builder and having had very close contacts with solicitors and barristers.


Peter.

[bricks]

The reason you cant find good tradies is because we don't have to adevertise, customers find us via good feed back.

[Frank&Earnest]

I may be hard but I'm not a sucker, like those that allow themselves to be overcharged.

As you had a verbal agreement for $100 for the work to be done I would send them a cheque for the amount of $100 exactly together with a covering letter reminding them of the verbal agreement and if they wished to argue to the contrary I would be willing to hear such arguments in Court and advise them the name and address of my solicitor for service of documents.

It helps having worked for a builder and having had very close contacts with solicitors and barristers.


Peter.

Hole in one! I contacted a builder (a fellow member of Lions) who confirmed I had been taken for a ride and suggested not paying and involving Consumer Affairs. I do have some legal training and to avoid dragging out the matter I did just what you suggested. Being a nice guy, though, I made a cheque for $300 plus materials and sent it by registered mail. In other words, nice = 1/2 sucker, no more.

[SAISAY]

So someone over the phone told you a job would take 2 hours? Very typical stab in the dark guesstimate.
The job is always "straight" forward isn't it or is it.

The tradesman made phone calls though out the day 20 years ago on a mobile phone? Yeah theyre the ones returning calls to all the whinging clients.

What do those mobile phone calls cost alone. Imagine you being employed for a day.

What sort of hourly rate would you want?

Get over it!

So are you suggesting that F&E should have to pay for the tradie to make calls to other clients because he happened to be in F&E's house when the calls were made and, at the same time pay for smokos, 1 hour lunchtime and a young kid standing in a corner watching the older person work?
Get real.
Wolffie

[autogenous]

The guy on the other side of the phone says "you would be better off getting somebody from the ads in the local paper (going rate at the time would have ben less than $100 for the whole job), we charge the princely sum of $50 per hour". We agreed that a couple of hours would be about right for the job, taking into account a bit of cutting and pasting to fit the carpet to the smaller room, so I told them to go ahead.

Please accept my apologies. I should have read your scenario with a little more scrutiny.

I read into the statement that "the guy" was a salesman for a carpet company not the actual carpet layer. Ok the layer himself said the job would have taken 2 hours not the sales guy.
He said the job would cost $100 but he charges $50p/h. That is a little bit of misleading and deceptive conduct.

Many tradies have been told by a client that the sales guy said their house will be finished by christmas.

Businesses/tradies that have a good reputation (for customer service) are much more likely to retain customers in the long term regardless of the economic situation.

Yep. your right, it will depend on which trade your in a little. Some trades there is a big gap in the customer base where while someone may have had brickwork done on an extension. That client rarely has someone else in the immediate future who needs the same work done. So you do get recommendations but in some trades theres a wider gap of that happening.

If you don't like the business you are in - change jobs, careers, businesses. Otherwise be prepared to reap what you sow.

Yeah, not a problem. That has already happened. Of the 4 ex business a partners in the bricklaying industry, all very good tradesman their pride and grade of workmanship has led them to leave the trade because much of the time rates were based on the trades person who hammers the job up hence usually faster. The first business partner, quite a perfectionist now manages a fleet of cars at a university, the second has gone to the painting trade, the third is a building supervisor, the fourth has gone to stone&tiling.
Ive gone to web development, software sales and web based asset management solutions with some stonework in between as a backup. That will change in the next couple of weeks. The first guy won apprentice of the year. He was a perfectionist but at the end of the day you have to make a living. We've won MBA awards for workmanship on the display homes done.
You can see that while pride is great. You have to compete and if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
I wouldn't know where the employment pages section is in the paper and never advertise in the local, daily papers or yellow pages.
I had a workmate ask me for a price last year. He took someone 10% cheaper. The drains had been filled up with cement. The laundry flooded and the floor boards cupped. The boards had to be ripped up. The windows and doors don't particularly open and shut well. While people may know you do a good job. They will take a lower quote quite often.
Last week I did a job on a recommendation of a friend. The owner said there was a 1000 bricks. I did the job but there was only 850 bricks.I knew he was a good client. I gave him my best. He was so happy with the job he gave the money for the 1000 he stated. (An engineer who had already done a 2 week night school bricklaying course).

You learn to read clients by their call. Sometimes you get it wrong. Sometimes you have a loud bricksaw going , sometimes theres a loud bob cat, sometimes theres too much water off the quikcut or dust off the grinder so you leave the phone in the car.
Often you can be too knackered to ring callers back at night and 20 calls a night isn't feasible.

If you ring and no call back. Ring again because the chippie may have the gennie goin or power saws on etc etc

Sure when it quietens down you'll get more call backs. Call em excuses;cell em what you want; it definitely wont be me ringing back. I'm really not in the trade anymore.

Many of the borderline retire guys have said once it slows down they'll be ready for the pension.

I'm just trying to tell it how it is.