More Sorry Suggestions

[silentC]

I find myself in complete agreement with you. I just can't help thinking that if they really are sitting back waiting for an apology before moving on and actually doing something to help themselves (rather than expecting the government to do it for them) then they are cutting their noses off to spite their faces. I somehow doubt it.

I think this problem requires two things: support from the government and a willingness from the affected people to bring about change. Unfortunately, the latter just doesn't seem to be there, with the exception of a handful of individuals who actually do try, and the former seems to be squandered on things that don't help long term, or actually make things worse.

How much effort has been put into bringing about this apology? And it's not even a real tangible thing, like land rights, or fishing rights. Such a waste of resources for an end result that is going to give a few people warm and fuzzies and not much else.

Dazzler, in reply to your problem, if I was that Governor, I wouldn't know what to do either. Short of packing everyone up and shipping them back to England, I don't know what else would have worked.

[Brown Dog]

Im just courious...why people get so worked up about this so called apology. Is it really going to effect anyone that the "apology" is'nt directed at.

I mean for the average non aboriginal Australian is this apology going to make one little bit of difference to their life ?.

I understand some are concerned about the possible legal ramifications due to compensation....but as far as i understand anyone with a genuine claim already has the right under the law to make a case for compensation

cheers
BD

[silentC]

Here are just a few views that different people have expressed, in no particular order:

1. I don't want the government to apologise on my behalf because I have nothing to apologise for.

2. Making an apology gives the affected people an excuse for making themselves 'victims' - it removes the burden of doing something to help themselves because they now have someone to blame. Many of their problems are not the result of the child removal policy.

3. Making an apology opens the way for stronger calls for some sort of compensation.

4. Taking the children away in many cases was the best thing for them. There were obviously many cases where it was not, but on the whole the government at the time thought it was doing the right thing.

5. The government should not apologise for something that it has every intention of doing again - taking kids away from their birth parents if they see a need for it.

6. An apology is not going to change anything, it's just grandstanding by Kevin Rudd.

There you go, there are a handful of reasons why people object to it.

I'm actually undecided now. On the one hand, it's not going to impact my life and if it makes people feel better, it's like religion - pointless but some people seem to need it so what harm will it do? On the other, people like Michael Mansell make me want to dig my heels in.

[HappyHammer]

As long as we have religion, non religion and politics plus different coloured people and cultures we will never get on. I wish we could.

What have none believers ever done, extremely little compared to the religious and political elements.

HH.

[HappyHammer]

Well, I came here on a boat in the late 60's, so its not my problem to worry about.

While you like many people born here or not were not party to causing the problem we should all be prepared to contribute to the solution however unlikely that may be. If not then you should have your voting privileges removed.

HH.

[woodbe]

This thread shows is that there is still strong division over indigenous Australians in our society. We're also no closer to agreement, but that should come as no surprise, we woodworkers can't even agree to save native forests that were here when Captain Cook showed up, why should the native inhabitants get a break?

I also don't know a lot about Aborigines, but I have had the privilege of spending time with some of them in their own space rather than 'our' space. These people have their own way of life, history and culture, and it is not our way of life, history or culture. We often judge these people and their culture based upon our own, which is a natural thing to do, but I'm not convinced it is the right thing to do.

Will an apology help? I'm hopeful, but I really don't know. We cannot put things back the way they were, but one thing for sure is that a decent apology should stop all this wasted time talking about it and maybe it will sew the seeds of goodwill and we will see progress.

woodbe.

[bitingmidge]

100,000 people to apologise to, that's 0.5% of the population of Australia. If it was fair dinkum, they'd bus them down to Canberra and apologise in person. More people than that turn up in Canberra for the SummerNats.

How will disposessed indigenies receive the message if they don't have tele?

Mel and Koshie are going to broadcast live from Canberra, it must be really important.

P

[Brown Dog]

Will an apology help? I'm hopeful, but I really don't know

well put woodbe

SC

I understand all the views you have put forward on the behalf of others and why people object... what i dont understand is the passion behind the objections

I can empathise with the passion for the desire of an apology but i cant understand the objection...when as far as i can see, there will be no direct negative effect on anyone not directly involved.

I'm actually undecided now. On the one hand, it's not going to impact my life and if it makes people feel better, it's like religion - pointless but some people seem to need it so what harm will it do? On the other, people like Michael Mansell make me want to dig my heels in.

I agree....but what does digging your heel in actually do for you ?
cheers
BD

[pharmaboy2]

Will an apology help? I'm hopeful, but I really don't know. We cannot put things back the way they were, but one thing for sure is that a decent apology should stop all this wasted time talking about it and maybe it will sew the seeds of goodwill and we will see progress.

woodbe.

sounds like you have submitted rather than come around? Weary of the constant political game, the point scoring, the concentration on one issue that certainly isnt the most important one - after all you cant eat or live under an apology.

Just listening to the libs this past week, I sense a battle worn weariness, of just go with the flow - chances are nothing at all will change, and maybe something of substance will replace it.

"hope" is the right word - hoping is about the best its going to get - but just hope that the sydney city socialists dont suddenly think they've done their bit, released their guilt and move on to something more important in their eyes - apologies for the cynical view......

[Groggy]

An apology relies on an assumption that something "wrong" occurred. An apology by itself will not right a "wrong", so, what are the things that really need to be fixed? Have they been identified? Can they be fixed?

What happens AFTER the apology? Is that IT? Say sorry and walk away? If it were that simple I reckon it would have been done a while ago.

Some groups have said there must be compensation, some say no. I find myself asking what needs to be fixed, how, and for who? The entire aboriginal community or just the 'stolen' ones? Are the families included? What is family? Brothers and sisters or extended relatives too?

I can't see enough information to make an informed opinion.

[HappyHammer]

I can empathise with the passion for the desire of an apology but i cant understand the objection...when as far as i can see, there will be no direct negative effect on anyone not directly involved.

The problem might be that there are obviously many people with this view whether you understand it or not and they will look at the apology in a negative way if it's put forward on behalf of all Australians.

This negativity may find it's way passed the apology and impact on aborigines as people associate the apology with Aborigines. Not suggesting this will happen with SilentC but it may with people who have a negativitiy towards aborigines already. This means the apology may have a negative not positive impact if pitched as from all australians.

Let's see what Kevin comes up with......

HH.

[Clinton1]

Apologies for past Government policies which caused harm or were 'wrong' have been done before.

I know a lot of Govt policies usually end up with poor outcomes, but some outcomes are so poor that they need to be re-addressed.

Silent has pointed out that it is the Stolen Generation that is to receive the apology, and I'm waiting and see the details.

Regardless of the individual circumstances of the children that were removed from their families (I'll even grant that 100% were removed from a rather dismal situation - I don't believe it, but 'just for the sake of the argument')... the fact remains that a lot of the Stolen Generation experienced something that was destructive and led to a hell of a lot of harm.

My view is that if the Govt policy/legislation at the time was to remove some children, then the Govt at that time had a responsibility to those children to ensure that they were cared for to an acceptable standard.
The doctors standard of "do no harm' springs to mind.

The current govt can certainly seek to redress the harm caused by previous Govt policy, and can seek to offer an apology and/or compensation.

Basically, my view is that if the past Govt policy was so bad, then the current Govt is morally obliged (legally - I hope so) to redress the issue.

How far back in time this obligation extends... well, I think that the British Govt is never going to say sorry for 'transportation'... but they can say sorry for inflicting the Spice Girls on us all.

As to 'fixing' the rather woeful situation that some Aboriginal Australians find themselves in.... I have no idea, but hopefully better minds than mine can get in and help to resolve some of the issues.

Suggesting that "we" gave "them" this, that and the next thing is rather unhelpful, and misses the point that "they" are part of that wonderful thing called "the Australian community" and it should really be one rather large and happy family.
Obviously some of the family have rather specific needs at the moment... hopefully the nation can lend a hand, as is both the obligation and the right.

[woodbe]

sounds like you have submitted rather than come around? Weary of the constant political game, the point scoring, the concentration on one issue that certainly isnt the most important one - after all you cant eat or live under an apology.

Yes, sick of the political game on this issue.

I have never understood what the problem with making an apology was. At one time, I thought that the government's reticence was because of the potential costs, but now, post-intervention, I'm not so sure.

woodbe.

[silentC]

The real challenge in Aboriginal policy is to "get away from all this romantic [BS] about Aboriginal culture" and to "get rid of this PC crap and confront some very, very tough issues". The person who said this last week was not a Liberal politician but Warren Mundine, an Aborigine and the Labor Party's former national president.

The risk of reinforcing the victim mindset, which Mundine bluntly warns against, was one of the principal reasons why the former Howard government refused to make a formal apology. Instead, the former government tried to work with people such as Mundine and Noel Pearson to encourage Aboriginal people to take more personal responsibility for their own lives.

From Tony Abbott's opinion piece in the Sydney Morning Herald

[dazzler]

Im just courious...why people get so worked up about this so called apology. Is it really going to effect anyone that the "apology" is'nt directed at.

I mean for the average non aboriginal Australian is this apology going to make one little bit of difference to their life ?.

I understand some are concerned about the possible legal ramifications due to compensation....but as far as i understand anyone with a genuine claim already has the right under the law to make a case for compensation

cheers
BD

Hi BD

Interesting points you make. I dont get passionate but enjoy a debate about something that interests me.

I am for compensation as victims of crime for all children taken from thier parents and abused / neglected as a result and would go further. A court or commission solely set up for this function where the person can go before and thier circumstances set out for the court to decide if reparation and an apology is needed. If it is then the compensation should reflect the hurt caused. Unlimited medical care and mental health care where required should be offered.

Each case needs to be assessed on its merits and in some cases huge compensation should be paid. In some cases no compensation need be paid if the child was removed from a bad place and put in a good place so to speak and turned out better for the experience.

The canadians spent $1.9 billion canadian paying reparation. It boiled down to a payment of about $10k per person. What a croc.

What gets me is this. If a group of people are so mentally unwell that they require an apology from another group before they can move forward then they are going to require a lot of psychological help to deal with it afterwards.

What has Mr Rudd put in place for this.

Tomorrow we are going to have a large number of people effected by his apology and many will need counselling or more to deal with it. There will be a large void to fill and I doubt there is anything to fill it with.

Has anyone picked up on the fact that the midday news on ABC stated that a large number of indigenous people are attending not from the group being apologised to but to protest the "intervention". Priorities all screwed up