Usa....usa

[Honorary Bloke]

It would be best if you, or other Americans take up the cudgels in support of America.

Jerry

No. Perhaps someone else. I will not provide further input to a thread in which certain posters copy and paste vitriolic "manifestos" and un-researched "quotes" instead of making their own arguments.

This thread was interesting and the debate for the most part civil. But at least one participant seems to have his own agenda. Perhaps we can start a fresh thread when the noise level is reduced.

[masoth]

You're right Bob!
A pity, because I have been enjoying the reasoning and logic, eventhough from different perspectives.

soth

[Honorary Bloke]

You're right Bob!
A pity, because I have been enjoying the reasoning and logic, eventhough from different perspectives.

soth

I think this is what you lot call spitting the dummy.

[masoth]

True mate, but one can't blunder through life accepting all accusation as fact.

soth

[jerryc]

Bob,

As I have said, statement without informed support of that statement is no argument. Grabbing bits of information and regurgitating them without thought or understanding helps no one. While what is happening is an irritation, it can be ignored. In fact should be ignored. Why should one allow such comments to have the power to interfere?


Jerry

[joe greiner]

Joe in my previous post I said how difficult it is to understand fully the culture of another country. Here we have a case in point. Forgive my warped sense of humour and don't take offence but in the area of London where I was brought up it had a very different meaning

Jerry

As George Bernard Shaw said, "England and America are two countries separated by a common language."

According to my imperfect understanding, the terms "billiards" and "pool" may be restricted to different forms of the game in different countries, with and without pockets; hence my distinction. I suspect "pocket pool" has a more universal meaning.

That said, my mission is not to defend America's sins, real or imagined, nor to attack the sins of others. My professional specialty is construction, not demolition.

Joe

[Honorary Bloke]

Bob,

Why should one allow such comments to have the power to interfere?


Jerry

Because it was early morning and it struck me wrong and I decided to throw a tantrum (spit the dummy).

Never mind.

As for citing positive change in American culture or politics it is a difficult challenge partly because a number of the changes are almost entirely internal and would make little sense to non-Americans. But, of course, the recent election results are a significant milepost marking a great deal of progress on our racial issues in a short time. That's one that everyone can appreciate.

How short a time is a short time? Well, I can distinctly remember as a child growing up in the southern US seeing public drinking fountains labelled "colored" and "white." Likewise, restaurants open only to the white race, and signs in public transportation saying "Colored please seat from the rear" and a white line drawn near the rear door of the bus to demarcate the allotted space. This would have been the late 1950s and early 1960s.

So in what, not quite 50 years, we come from that to an elected President of colour. Not too bad really, in my estimation. But possible only because the vast majority of Americans recognised that it was counter-productive and just plain wrong.

Political change comes more slowly, partly because there is no consensus among Americans what that politics should be. One should bear in mind that although Obama won the election rather handily, millions of people voted for the other candidate. It remains to be seen if a broad consensus can be achieved.

Turning now to your example citing the pejorative use of socialism in the election. Socialism was a significant political force in the US in the early part of the 20th Century. A number of Socialist Party candidates won local offices, and two served in the US Congress. But their strong opposition to entering WW I and later the splintering caused by the success of the Bolsheviks sent them into rapid decline.

Regardless of how well socialism may work in other countries, most Americans are still steeped in the concept of "rugged individualism" as the proper means to survival and success. And because of that early failure, socialism is still regarded by many as a euphemism for communism (my my, what a lot of "isms" in one short space).

[RETIRED]

Manuka Jock.

The Admins have no problem with political debate providing that it:

Does not get personal and heated between 2 parties. Play the idea not the man.

Does not denigrate a leader, government or country for their political, religious or legal system. E.g. XYZ is a lying thieving rock spider is not acceptable.

If any of the above happens it will be dealt with swiftly.

In other words go for it but keep it nice.

From post 27.

[Manuka Jock]

Could the Administrator explain to these Forum why the posts by Manuka Jock were interfered with ?

The Admins have no problem with political debate providing that it:



Does not get personal and heated between 2 parties. Play the idea not the man.



Does not denigrate a leader, government or country for their political, religious or legal system. E.g. XYZ is a lying thieving rock spider is not acceptable.



If any of the above happens it will be dealt with swiftly.



In other words go for it but keep it nice.

Manuka Jock.
Quote:
The Admins have no problem with political debate providing that it:

Does not get personal and heated between 2 parties. Play the idea not the man.

Does not denigrate a leader, government or country for their political, religious or legal system. E.g. XYZ is a lying thieving rock spider is not acceptable.

If any of the above happens it will be dealt with swiftly.

In other words go for it but keep it nice.

From post 27.
__________________
Ian () Robertson
"We do good turns every day

===========================================================
Why were these two posts were deleted , and substituted with these messages ?

This thread is about the government of the USA.

Some mention has been made of the USA's fitness or otherwise in being the 'world policeman' .

My posts are in reply to that .

Does the Administrator have issues with the International War Crimes Tribunal ?

Manuka Jock

[Honorary Bloke]

Could the Administrator explain to these Forum why the posts by Manuka Jock were interfered with ?





===========================================================
Why were these two posts were deleted , and substituted with these messages ?

This thread is about the government of the USA.

Some mention has been made of the USA's fitness or otherwise in being the 'world policeman' .

My posts are in reply to that .

Does the Administrator have issues with the International War Crimes Tribunal ?

Manuka Jock

The International War Crimes Tribunal, even if it exists, has nothing to do with what you posted. In fact, that was a made-up manifesto that someone posted to look "official."

[RETIRED]

Could the Administrator explain to these Forum why the posts by Manuka Jock were interfered with ?





===========================================================
Why were these two posts were deleted , and substituted with these messages ?

This thread is about the government of the USA.

Some mention has been made of the USA's fitness or otherwise in being the 'world policeman' .

My posts are in reply to that .

Does the Administrator have issues with the International War Crimes Tribunal ?

Manuka Jock

Completely off at a tangent.
You started stirring the pot with your first post and have been trying to shift the thread to your view ever since.
Barrow pushing is frowned upon here. It is a debate with sane views being put forward and either agreed with or argued against.
No more discussion on this topic.

[jerryc]

Bob,
I could be wrong on this point but war crimes tribunals are set up to deal with specific incidents or wars. An example being the Nurenburg Trials after WW11. Because there might be no sharp line here, you and M J might be at cross purposes.
There is the International Court of Justice which the US withdrew from and there is the International Criminal Court.

As someone who choses not to live in the USA I have to say there is a great deal about the country I find disturbing. As I have said I also am unhappy about things that happen and have happened in the UK and OZ. I am loath to criticize because it would open the thread to just the actions that has to adjudicate on. For example on the issue of "rugged individualism" and minimum government control I would be in conflict with such views. Britain tried minimum control "laissez faire" in the nineteenth century and it failed. Britain and Oz believe it is a moral obligation to help the weak and underpriviledged with good health and education.

It is odd that this "rugged individualism" concept flourishes in America. When the wagons pushed West, how long would an individual last? The wagon trains were a good example of team work and protecting the weakest among the group
.
Can we continue to discuss what are controversial issues?

Joe,

I can see you want to change some issues in America and would be glad to know what they are? Love of one's country should never blind one to it's faults. Who better to outline those faults and suggest cures. Oliver Cromwell when asked to sit for his portrait said it should "Be warts and all."

,
XYZ IS a lying thieving rock spider but I can't prove it --yet.

Jerry

[m2c1Iw]

I apologise if I appear to be laboring the point however I interpret the term vigilante as being one who acts independently when taking the law into their own hand. This term originanted according to some references during the era of the wild west of the USA when law and order were absent.
Taking the Iraq War as an example to determine how the term may apply to recent US action I submit that the President and others in the US administration spent considerable time persuading, argueing, cajolling or perhaps pressuring other countries to support the proposed action. Thereby forming the Coalition of the Willing.
While I don't know whether this coalition satisfied International Laws it does appears to me the US collected an acceptable level of support to avoid being accused of acting independently which by the way militarily they could have.

Anyway to the point of positive change that those outside the US are looking forward to one high on my priority list is foreign policy and a moderate and inclusive position with the Muslim world.

One of the interesting aspects of the Obama campaign was the ability to galvanise not only support but active campaigning from the party faithful. I saw it quoted that in serveral states over half of the population received personal visits from campaigners, extaordinary.
Makes you wonder what outcome a compulsory vote would bring.

I like this quote:
A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won’t cross the street to vote in a national election.

Mike

[silentC]

As far as I can tell this International War Crimes Tribunal is a powerless group of anti-war protesters. I can't find any reference to anyone actually taking them seriously.

Not that I have any reason to doubt their findings, I'm sure a lot of this stuff happens. But it's not as if posting links to their publications, which by the way seem to be hosted on some other third party's web site not their own, actually proves anything.

[m2c1Iw]

You had best take that up with the International War Crimes Tribunal ,
it is their website .

Would you be so kind as to explain to us the composition of the tribunal how the members are appointed on what authority does it act.

BTW I've been annoyed by experts you'll have to better than this.