Taboo subject on this forum? (Electrical queries)

[rat52]

One thing that has not yet been discussed is the testing and tagging of electrical tools on building sites.

As a carpenter I carried 20 or more items so being a tightass and not wanting to pay $10 per tool I did a course on in house testing.

It was the best course I have ever done as it explained the dangers very clearly and gave me a basic knowledge of electricity.

Even though the legislation say a competent person can change a plug end any thing more than that I leave to the experts.

Every three months it takes me about 2 hrs to check all my tools including a visual check for wear and tear. I also check that all safety guards are working smoothly.

I realise that this legislation does not apply to people working in their own sheds but I would strongly advise every one to get all electrical appliances checked at least once a yr for your own peace of mind as things do wear and wires can only flex so much before breaking.

[Frank&Earnest]

The only loophole is that they probably wont ever know you did it.

maintenance work wich is up to standard would not void the certification, because it should be indistinguishable from the previous work.

In practice, we are saying the same thing with different words.

the regulations state quite clearly that an unqualified person cannot do electrical work, unless under direct supervision of a qualified supervisor This is the state of affairs in NSW. I find it hard to believe that SA would be any different.

Indeed. But the essential qualification is missing: in a paid work context.

There is always the possibility that either of us has not asked the right question or has been given the wrong answer. I'll try to formulate the issue in the tightest possible form, as I have been assured applies in SA.

- A is an unlicensed individual who knows and applies the standards required for the job.
- B is an unlicensed individual who does not.

A does the job for himself. He does not break any law.

A does the job for others. He breaches consumer protection laws.

B does the job for himself. He breaches safety laws. (Certification or $250,000 fine)

B does the job for others. He breaches consumer protection laws. His client breaches safety laws.

The person I spoke with said that unpaid work "for family and friends is a grey area". In doubt, erring on the said of caution is always a good idea.

Makes sense to me. Hope this settles it.

[silentC]

A does the job for himself. He does not break any law.

Sorry but no, I can't agree with that.

I haven't read the SA legislation, but the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act and Regulations of NSW, which apply to an existing Electrical Installation - ie. a house which has been built and is now being lived in by someone, state quite clearly that:

electrical installation means any fixed appliances, wires, fittings, apparatus or other electrical equipment used for (or for purposes incidental to) the conveyance, control and use of electricity in a particular place

(there are exclusions but none that affect this argument)

electrical wiring work means the actual physical work of installing, repairing, altering, removing or adding to an electrical installation or the supervising of that work.

A responsible person for an electrical installation in a place must, to the best of the person’s ability and knowledge, ensure that such parts of the electrical installation as may be prescribed by the regulations are maintained in accordance with the regulations while the electrical installation remains connected to the source of the supply of electricity.

Section 14 (Unqualified electrical wiring work) of the Home Building Act 1989 makes it an offence for a person to carry out electrical wiring work unless the person is authorised to do so under that Act.

An individual must not do any electrical wiring work (whether or not it is also residential building work), except:

(a) as a qualified supervisor (being the holder of an endorsed contractor licence, or a supervisor certificate, authorising its holder to do that work), or

(b) as the holder of a tradesperson certificate authorising its holder to do that work under supervision, but only if the work is done under the supervision and in accordance with the directions, if any, of such a qualified supervisor.

The requirement to have any electrical wiring work done by a qualified person (or under the direct supervision of a qualified supervisor) extends to an existing electrical installation, ie. your house. It is black and white in this state. There are no grey areas here. It does not cover only paid work, that phrase is not mentioned. There are regulations about who can contract for electrical work but that is covered elsewhere.

I can't speak for the situation in SA.

If you still don't believe me, then there's no more I can do to convince you, so I wish you well with your future electrical activities.

[NCArcher]

If you still don't believe me, then there's no more I can do to convince you, so I wish you well with your future electrical activities.

Your'e wasting your breath Silent.
It has been pointed out many times but he just cant grasp that it is illegal.

[Frank&Earnest]

Ok, I'll get it in writing. If my interpretation of the law has been incorrectly confirmed by the Office of Consumer and Business Affairs, which administers the licencing of electricians in SA, I will publicly apologise on their and my behalf. I trust that all those of you who think that I "just cant grasp that it is illegal" will extend to me the same courtesy if I am again proven correct.

silentC: when an Act refers to regulations, they are the regulations pertaining to that Act, not other Acts (eg the Building Act in this case). As I see it, and I could be wrong not having read both Acts in detail, you keep mixing their purposes and making a wrong inference from one to the other. Either that, or b) the law is actually different in NSW, or c) I am wrong about SA, as above. Once I have sorted it out this side of the border, if c) is excluded you might wish to satisfy yourself about whether it is a) or b).

[silentC]

I would just like to make it clear that I do not now, nor have I ever, professed to have any knowledge of "how they do things" in SA. I've been there twice in my life. If it's legal in SA, then maybe all the people who complain about not being allowed to do their own wiring can move there and wire away to their heart's content.

if I am again proven correct

You should have been a politician.

[silentC]

I'm also wondering if you've read any of the stuff above, because I honestly can't see how anyone could logically still argue that it's not illegal to do your own wiring in NSW.

[TEEJAY]

I'm also wondering if you've read any of the stuff above, because I honestly can't see how anyone could logically still argue that it's not illegal to do your own wiring in NSW.

Yeah well I'm pretty sure I can do my own wiring in Queensland

[Frank&Earnest]

No, I did not, I said it above, and the excerpts allowed my interpretation.

Ok, it has been quick. As life often goes, I was only partially right. And I could not possibly be a politician, because I always stick to my word. I hereby offer my sincere partial apologies and expect only partial apologies.

The misunderstanding with Consumer Affairs was around the word "licence". No licence is required if the work is unpaid. What is required in an urban area is a "worker registration", i.e. the qualification we were really talking about. Cockies are allowed to kill themselves .

I am going to repeat this in the other thread re maintenance of applications. On that count I was 100% correct. On this side of the power point it is a free country.

[TEEJAY]

Yep, this farm has it's own wiring SilentC

[silentC]

when an Act refers to regulations, they are the regulations pertaining to that Act, not other Acts (eg the Building Act in this case).

You need to read it properly. The Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act refers to the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Regulations and the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Regulations refer explicitly to the section of the Home Building Act where it makes reference to unqualified work.

This is from the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Regulations:

Section 14 (Unqualified electrical wiring work) of the Home Building Act 1989 makes it an offence for a person to carry out electrical wiring work unless the person is authorised to do so under that Act.

It is the author of the legislation making the cross-reference, not me. I simply quoted section 14 for your convenience.

Cockies are allowed to kill themselves

Not in NSW. At least, not in any loophole I've found. Glad I'm not a farmer in SA.

[silentC]

Cockies are allowed to kill themselves

Another thing the Inspector told me the other day was that the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act also now makes it illegal to do your own wiring on stand alone installations. That would include people running a generator capable of producing more than 50 volts.

[TEEJAY]

Yep cockies are allowed to be killed here in Queensland - at least they were by the canetoads in the State of Origin

[silentC]

What is required in an urban area is a "worker registration"

OK, so a registered worker is an electrician, who has completed a trade certificate and is qualified to do electrical work under supervision. A licensee is (presumably) an electrician who has also jumped through the necessary hoops to become a supervisor or certified inspector. So both of these options leave Joe Blow out of the equation.

In that case, it is identical to NSW (except for the cockies bit), and the upshot is that a common or garden variety householder is not allowed to do his or her own wiring, unless under the direct supervision of a licensed person. So not even your mate Bill the sparky will do, unless he is licensed. And that's what I've been saying all along.

[chrisp]

My understanding is that doing your own non-fixed wiring is legal in Australia. (I’m happy to stand corrected if I’m wrong.) Therefore, why can’t we ask and discuss how to repair a (non-fixed wired) appliance?

I think Frank&Earnest have verified my original claim regarding the legal status of doing your own non-fixed wiring - i.e. wiring of your own plug-in appliances for your own use.

My understanding is that doing your own fixed wiring is illegal except when done under appropriate supervision.

I've found the discussion in this thread quite interesting, and it seems that there is some genuine, but well intentioned, confusion about the legality of electrical work. I hope that this thread will go someway to alleviating the confusion.

I have asked the OCEI in writing for clarification on this - I'm still awaiting a response. But my understanding from previous verbal contact with the OCEI is that they are only concerned with fixed wiring (and new appliances). In the meantime, I have not heard anything to suggest that the impact of the regulations has changed.

There are other interesting matters that have arose in this thread, such as:

• The "closed shop" issue. The barriers to being about to sit the required tests to achieve a license.
• The "indistinguishability" issue - if the work is done according to standard and done in a workmanship like manner, but by an unlicensed person, who would know, and who would have a prove the work was legal or illegal?