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Thread: Whisperings
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26th November 2011, 07:12 AM #76SENIOR MEMBER
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Horsepower rating.
This I will explain a bit about
On steam engines there are three types of horsepower (I wont bore you with the history of the word), Indicated, nominal and brake.
Brake uses blocks of wood attached to rope wrapped around the flywheel and attached to a set of scales while anchored at the other end. The flywheel is water cooled. I will have to run up to our store shed and get some photos of this as it isn't set up yet.
Nominal uses the engine cylinder dimensions and is the preferred nomenclature as it sounds better than the rest (probably a salesman thing).
Lastly is indicated, this uses a device called an indicator which is attached to the engine and records the average pressures throughout the stroke of the engine and then this is converted to horsepower. Good luck finding an indicator!!
Which brings me to a funny story.(well it is to me)
I needed to check the speed of the stamper battery and being a collecter of engineering paraphenalia I have a Jaquet Indicator (tacho). I used this to check the speed of the engine. The curator of the museum happened to walk past and asked what it was I was using. I explained and she replied that she didnt' know we had one of those. When I told her it was mine she said she would search to see if Sovereign Hill owned one. Suffice it to say they don't....but
I will preface this next bit by telling you there is a perpetual search that is constantly ongoing for a complete steam engine indicator so we can check our engines for (current) horsepower. We had asked the previous curator and got told we had nothing like that in the museum.
Turns out we have no less than eight complete steam engine indicators and it seems about six more like them. She wanted to know if they would be of any use to us. We nearly fell over.
So, until we set one up and get the indicated horsepower of each engine I wont bother as there is conflicting horsepower ratings for the engines we have and doing the maths to calculate the nominal horsepowers of each engine would do my head in
Google Steam Engine Indicator and you will see what I am talking about.
Phil
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26th November 2011, 08:56 AM #77Distracted Member
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Phil, thanks for that. I didn't expect you to educate me from scratch, I was just after a little bit of info about your engines. How many do you have?
Edit: In case anyone else is interested, here are some weird and wonderful engines: Unusual Steam Engines.
Edit: I should have said designs - a lot of them never got past drawings. On the rotary page(s) you can see the idea of the turbine trying to form but preconceptions wouldn't get out of the way.
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26th November 2011, 10:25 AM #78Try not to be late, but never be early.
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Hi Phil,
I'm enjoying this very much. Can you tell me,(us) was there a standard speed for the overhead shaft right across the industry? I'm thinking there must have been and you would fit the appropriate pulley to give you the speed required for each machine?
In post No 9 you say that you can vary the speed of the engine to get the optimum speed for your lathe, but if you were in a situation with a number of machines all being used at the same time could you possibly make yourself unpopular doing that?
Regards,
Geoff.
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26th November 2011, 03:26 PM #79SENIOR MEMBER
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Apologies Bryan but I can get a little carried away.
I did a quick count of our engines (the nones that I know of anyway)
All up we have 28
9 installed and operational
2 under refurbishment
17 waiting for restoration
A simple engine has one cylinder
They are:
Phoenix tandem compound
Norman vertical simple
Buffalo inverted vertical simple
Ruston Proctor simple
Ingersol Rand air compressor
John Donald Winder
2 Welch/perrin simplex double acting feedwater pumps
2 Worthington duplex double acting feedwater pumps
5 Weirs Simplex double acting feedwater pumps
Gardiner duplex double acting feedwater pump
Walker simple with air compressor connected via tailrod
Davey Paxman school engine which can be a simple, compound or condensing with horsepower measuring equipment (from the School of Mines Ballarat) Including a Parsons turbine with 240 volt generator
Smellie engine simple
Marshall Portable
2 large forging hammers
Bellis and Morcom enclosed high speed vertical engine with generating set compound
Manchester wall pump
3 unknown engines simple
Pictures to follow
phil
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26th November 2011, 03:34 PM #80
Hi Phil,
I can see why steam power is such an addictive thing, fascinating stuff, I've been googling and looking at various Steam Engine Indicators, and I think I can see why the last museum curator didn't know what they were..
Jaquet are an interesting company too, nothing quite as impressive as a bit of precision swiss engineering..
Good stuff, thanks for posting.
Regards
Ray
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26th November 2011, 03:40 PM #81SENIOR MEMBER
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HI Geoff
there wasn't any speed standard as such but a lot of calculations were done before the engine was acquired or ordered. Most shops with overheads were laid out to suit available space and machine positioning with factors like machine revs and pulley sizes. Normally a central shaft would run the length of the building and paralell shafts running down each wall. With creative pulley work you can have slow machines down the left wall say and the medium speed machinery in the middle and faster machines along the right wall with the engine running at it's optimum speed driving the centre shaft. Or any combination of the above. Compounding pulleys was also favoured for the different speed ranges required. Most engines ran on the governor so it was a matter of open the throttle and make sure the governor belt didn't fall off.
Had I slowed the engine down 'back in the day,' I can assure you (had I survived the beating) i would be out of a job.
Normally lineshafting and shop layout was worked out well beforehand. If the engine was available the engine speed dictated the pulleys. If an engine was required then one governed at the appropriate speed was ordered or procured.
At times only one man and a 'lackie' ran a shop. I suppose like the many and varied shops of today.
Phil
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26th November 2011, 06:51 PM #82SENIOR MEMBER
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Hi Ray,
it is a bit addictive and such amazing power from boiling water and they run smooth and silent as well.
The indicators we have even have the pencils and charts as well as full sets of springs. Normally unheard of.
Ya know, that Jaquet works perfectly even after all these years and gave me all the info I required
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26th November 2011, 09:31 PM #83Distracted Member
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Holy steamophile Batman! I give up - Phil gets the prize for the most toys. (Though possibly with an unfair advantage.)
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26th November 2011, 11:45 PM #84future machinist
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Wow those are some. Nice toys and. Steam engine all this talk is. Making. Me want. To help out. And restore my. Tractor clubs. Steam house.
BETTER TO HAVE TOOLS YOU DON'T NEED THAN TO NEED TOOLS YOU DON'T HAVE
Andre
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27th November 2011, 08:24 AM #85SENIOR MEMBER
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Hi welder
there is a lot of satisfaction in bringing back a lifeless lump of iron into an operating engine. Because of the normal unavailability of parts it is all about repairing worn parts or making new. Thats where the satisfaction lies. With the Walker engine just cleaning the dirt off revealed shiny steel because of the amount of oil splashed around from when it was working, kind of preserved the engine while it laid idle. You wont be disappointed even just helping out in your clubs steam house. I dont know what you have in the way of steam but be careful, a running engine, especially the size that I run are not toys and will chew you up without so much as bringing the governor into play.
Wow, on that note, if you have any questions don't hesitate to ask.
Phil
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27th November 2011, 08:42 AM #86SENIOR MEMBER
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28th November 2011, 09:31 PM #87SENIOR MEMBER
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This Engine is the Davey Paxman experimental engine. It was used at the School of Mines in Ballarat to teach new engine drivers. This engine is the next major restoration and installation. I have included a photo of it's original position at the school (though not a very good one). At the moment it is stored in our 'Antiques Den'.
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28th November 2011, 09:41 PM #88SENIOR MEMBER
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and here is the rest
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30th November 2011, 10:44 PM #89SENIOR MEMBER
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Visit
Looks like Sunday 11th Dec is the best option for every one.
So keep that free. More in the morning.
Regards Phil.
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1st December 2011, 05:52 AM #90SENIOR MEMBER
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Perfect