Usa....usa

[Honorary Bloke]

I am very confused by all these long sentences and big words but if you want my opinion on mr o'bamas victory all I can say is IT'S A GREAT DAY FOR THE IRISH.
love to all,
witch1

Just remember witch1, if you scratch me you will uncover a wharfie. Ask anyone.

[joe greiner]

No way would I bail out on such a promising thread. I really did have a trailer full of timber to unload; now I have only half a trailer to unload. The timber came from a bunch of campaign sign supports I made for a neighbour's political effort. Her husband and I erected them over three weekends before the election. Florida law (widely ignored, alas) requires removal within a week after the election, so he and I did so the day after. "Unloading" includes de-nailing, de-stapling, and de-screwing, so it doesn't go very fast, but it provides a heap of re-usable 2x4 framing timber of only a few weeks' exposure, and about 60 sheets of Coroplast extruded poly-something 3ft x 5ft with no immediate need; that's just the way of the pack rat. BTW, she won the election, and will become our new representative in the Florida legislature.

The "excellent scholars" I referred to are Jerry and Bob, of course. History must be revised as new facts are discovered. The tricky part is to verify the "facts." One theory of WW2 suggests that America was all too ready to assume its role as the Arsenal of Democracy, even though isolationism was the official order of the day. The current situation with respect to Iran deserves careful examination, before rushing into "negotiations."

The Vietnam war was a particularly low point. The declaration of war was based on the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which assumed an attack on a US Navy ship; turns out to be somewhat fuzzy logic, and precipitated strong anti-war sentiment, as well as (only, it seemed at the time) a half-hearted effort. Similar logic attends the current activity in Iraq. I served in the US Army 1966-1968, stateside. I was never spat upon, but I appreciate the feelings of my comrades in arms. At a Veteran's Day parade in 2001, I remarked to another veteran. "I guess it's not 1968 anymore." The Vietnam Memorial Wall was constructed in Washington DC, with engraved names of all those who died there, or from such injuries. Casualties from later wars are being added too. Because America is so big, and more reliant on personal vehicles for travel, several scale-model Traveling Walls have been built; about 14 altogether I think. There are also some web sites which can be visited.

In February (or so) 2003, when the Iraq invasion was only the gleam in W's eye, the office hawks shouted enthusiasm. I thought that winning a war in Iraq could be the worst thing that ever happened to America. I reasoned that although Saddam might be an a**hole, he was THEIR a**hole, and many Iraqis loved him. I hoped that it was a diversionary ploy, with a sudden shift into Afghanistan; such a shift would likely have worldwide support, and would secure W's place in history in the same category as Alexander the Great. To my eternal shame, I didn't communicate my sentiments to the White House, because they would probably just be piled into for-and-against lists. I get the same impression in my emails to Governor Crist; an improved response would be something along the lines of "Thank you; now please go to Hell." My younger brother tells me I should stop tilting at windmills.

Gun control is a thorny issue here. The "Right to Bear Arms" is enshrined in our Constitution. Almost all attempts at registration are fought strenuously by the gun lobby, as a direct attack. I suspect this contributes to outside perceptions of a bunch of cowboys and unregulated militias. It occurs to me, that we have no qualms about registering motor vehicles, which have in fact been used in homicides and suicides. Someday, common sense may prevail.

On a few occasions, I've observed that this very forum is a mini-UN, and I've also suggested (half tongue-in-cheek) that UN ambassadors be required to take up the hobby of woodworking. Hasn't happened yet.

This is enough for one chomp. I admit I could be wrong about everything. I've been accused of being smart. However, there's a large body of conflicting evidence, sufficient to raise Reasonable Doubt, so I don't fear the hangman. But I have stayed at Holiday Inn Express.

[Wall and salvage. The plastic tubs facilitate parking before impact with the trailer.]

Joe

[Honorary Bloke]

This is enough for one chomp. I admit I could be wrong about everything. I've been accused of being smart. However, there's a large body of conflicting evidence, sufficient to raise Reasonable Doubt, so I don't fear the hangman. But I have stayed at Holiday Inn Express.

Joe

It's a Seppo joke.

Well said, Joe. I was in the Air Force from 1965-1969, so I can appreciate the references.

[joe greiner]

It's a Seppo joke.

Well said, Joe. I was in the Air Force from 1965-1969, so I can appreciate the references.

Not necessarily, Bob. I think they (HIX) use it everywhere.

Joe

[Manuka Jock]

Jerry,
Why is it that most of the wars since WW2 have been called police actions.

Some of the wars since WW2

Abkhazian Rebellion
Albanian Civil War
Algerian Civil War
Angola war of National Liberation
Bangladeshi Independence War
Bosnian Civil War
Cambodian Civil War
Chechen Uprising
Chinese conflicts in Quemoy and Matsu
Chinese Invasion of Tibet
Congo post independance war
Djibouti Civil War
Enitrea War of Independence
Ethiopia Civil War
Ethiopia Revolution
Ethiopian-Somalia War
Falklands War
Fijian Military Coup
First Indochina War
Greece Civil War
Gulf War
Hmong Guerrilla War: Loas
India-Pakistan War
Intifada
Iran-Iraq War
Israel War of Independence
Jordan Civil War
Khmer Rouge Insurgency
Korean War
Kosovo War
Lebanon's Civil War
Liberia's Civil War
Libya's war with Chad
Libyan-Egyptian War
Moldovan Civil War
Mozambique War of Independence
Nambia's War of National Liberation
Nigeria Civil War
Saharan War
Sierra Leone Civil Conflict
Sinai War
Six Days War
Somalian Civil War
Sudan Civil Wars
Togolese Civil War
Ugandan Civil War
Vietnam: Second Indochina War
Yom Kippur War
Yugoslavian Civil War




Which ones were 'police actions' ?

[Honorary Bloke]

I give up. Which ones?

[Manuka Jock]

None of them .

[m2c1Iw]

None of them .

Hi Jock,
I refer to Wikipedia not exactly the authoritive source but generally accepted as reasonably accurate. I guess it depends on who is describing the conflict, politically it's a police action militarily it's a war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_action

Mike

[Manuka Jock]

Wikipedia will change its tune when it gets invaded by a bunch of armed thugs .

[jerryc]

Jerry,
A good policeman brings offenders before justice so as the judge and jury (the UN) can decide punishment .

Why is it that most of the wars since WW2 have been called police actions.

Seems to me the US has had reasonable support for its actions from developed countries or at least their governments and I can't think of an instance when the justification for intervention did not include support for or introduction of democracy.
.

We are often critical of the US military actions but hasn't Australia provided support in a lot of cases. I wonder if Australia had 300 million people and the military power if our goverment would act and react in the same manner as the US. I also believe having the power will always lead to being the policeman it is a natural progression what we hope for is that a democracy prevents the abuse of that power.

You say if we have statesman for politicians we will not need a policeman well that assumes free elections something we are along way from. Take a peek at Zimbabwe for an example of how not to do it.

The point I am attempting to make is a true democracy can be relied on to get it right.......eventually


Mike

The US does not act as a policeman. A policeman is subject to the law (International law) and hands over the culprit to a higher jusice for trial by that court. The US acts as a vigilante. Applies it's own law with disregard for the international law and metes out it's own form of "justice" and holds itself above the law.

I rarely counter question with question but -Why are most armies called defence forces when they are attack forces?

The reason for Australia supporting the US is a deep and complex issue. It really goes back to Australia seeing itself as a Western enclave perched on the rim of Asia. Back to the Yellow Peril . Being off the present subject I will leave it for the moment. As to supporting the US, that is a complex point to discuss. Countries often link by treaties . They may not want to be involved but are drawn into a conflict by treaty obligations.

. However your statement that you can't think of an instance when the justification for intervention did not include support for or introduction of democracy does need to be challenged. Chile had a democratically elected government that was overthrown with the aid of the CIA. Argentina's "dirty war" was a civil war but the president Peron had been electedwith 61percent of the vote. The US was complicit in the reign of terror instigated by the generals. Cuba had a corrupt dictatorship supported by the US. Perhaps I should throw in Hamas. It was democratically elected by the Palistinians of the Gaza Strip but because it does not suit America's view of democracy it has been declared a terrorist organisation. I asked in a previous thread "What is a terrorist organisation?" Oddly enough America never raised a voice in condemnation of the IRA.

This is the first time in history that a single nation has had such absolute power as the US possesses now. What you "wonder" and "believe" I cannot answer.

You take me to task on my stating that if we had statesmen for politians we would not need a policeman and then go on to confuse it with free elections. George W was freely elected.

A true democracy can be relied on to get it right -eventually. An infinity of monkeys with typewriters could write the complete works of Shakespeare--eventually

Jerry

[m2c1Iw]

The US does not act as a policeman. A policeman is subject to the law (International law) and hands over the culprit to a higher jusice for trial by that court. The US acts as a vigilante. Applies it's own law with disregard for the international law and metes out it's own form of "justice" and holds itself above the law.

Jerry I do not accept that as a universal statement.

I rarely counter question with question but -Why are most armies called defence forces when they are attack forces?

Yep same reason as for police actions tends to be politically acceptable.

The reason for Australia supporting the US is a deep and complex issue. It really goes back to Australia seeing itself as a Western enclave perched on the rim of Asia. Back to the Yellow Peril . Being off the present subject I will leave it for the moment. As to supporting the US, that is a complex point to discuss. Countries often link by treaties . They may not want to be involved but are drawn into a conflict by treaty obligations.

Has Australia ever suspended or terminated a treaty with the US or any other country?

. However your statement that you can't think of an instance when the justification for intervention did not include support for or introduction of democracy does need to be challenged. Chile had a democratically elected government that was overthrown with the aid of the CIA. Argentina's "dirty war" was a civil war but the president Peron had been electedwith 61percent of the vote. The US was complicit in the reign of terror instigated by the generals. Cuba had a corrupt dictatorship supported by the US. Perhaps I should throw in Hamas. It was democratically elected by the Palistinians of the Gaza Strip but because it does not suit America's view of democracy it has been declared a terrorist organisation. I asked in a previous thread "What is a terrorist organisation?" Oddly enough America never raised a voice in condemnation of the IRA.

Well you have got me there I need to retire to the history books

This is the first time in history that a single nation has had such absolute power as the US possesses now. What you "wonder" and "believe" I cannot answer.

China?

You take me to task on my stating that if we had statesmen for politians we would not need a policeman and then go on to confuse it with free elections. George W was freely elected.

Poor wording on my part. What I was suggesting is that until all countries elect statesman conflict will remain.

A true democracy can be relied on to get it right -eventually. An infinity of monkeys with typewriters could write the complete works of Shakespeare--eventually

Monkeys was that Bill turning over in his grave

Regards
Mike

[joe greiner]

The original post referred to Americans looking forward to positive change. I thought either candidate would be an improvement over the present situation. One of them had a better agreement with the majority of voters.

I hope no-one tries to justify the actions cited by MJ, or to tar everyone with the same stick. There will always be partisans on every side of every issue. And coalitions to boot. A popular pocket billiards game in America is/was "cut-throat pool"; IIRC: a three-person game, in which players take turns of two ganging up on the third.

Democracy works best when it's home-made, difficult to impose on others. And still it's an experiment. As I said earlier, the human race seems to be God's Science Fair Project. Can we cite some positive results too?

Joe

[jerryc]

Jerry I do not accept that as a universal statement.

ans 1I made clear my reasoning as to why I considered America to be a vigilante, I don't expext people to agree with everything I say. If you don't then please support your reason for disagreeing with example. It makes it easier to discuss.

Has Australia ever suspended or terminated a treaty with the US or any other country?

ans2Sorry. What point are you making. At no time did I talk about suspension or termination of treaties. In fact my statement was the complete opposite. I said that countries are often drawn into conflicts against their will. .

China?

ans3My statement was clear that it was the first time a country had been in this position. I cannot make a comment on how China would react because China has not yet been in the same position

Jerry

[jerryc]

The original post referred to Americans looking forward to positive change. Can we cite some positive results too?

Joe

I'm not so hooked into America and it's problems as you would be Joe. I did say that the fact that Barak Obama had experience of being brought up, in his formative years in countries other than America could be a positive. What I might see as possible change for good would be influenced by my culture and might be seen as criticism of your country.
There are many things that a majority of Americans see as good, but which outsiders might dispute. I won't go too deep here because the purpose of this discussion is , or should be understanding and not mud slinging. However I'll use one example that was used constantly in the election, that terrible word SOCIALIST. The Scandinavian countries have what I perceive to be a very good socialist system. To Americans it appears to be the work of the Devil . So Joe, how can we cite positive change as you ask? It would be best if you, or other Americans take up the cudgels in support of America.

Jerry

[jerryc]

A popular pocket billiards game in America

Joe

Joe in my previous post I said how difficult it is to understand fully the culture of another country. Here we have a case in point. Forgive my warped sense of humour and don't take offence but in the area of London where I was brought up it had a very different meaning

Jerry