so whats our immigration policy?

[Chumley]

G'day all,

Interesting discussion. My parents refugeed out of central Europe to England in the '50's - re-qualified, worked a while, then emigrated to Aus. I'm an Aussie Citizen, but sometimes feel slightly out of sync with my fellow Aussies (like what date is Christmas...).

My own take is that I have no problem with immigrants, wonder why trades are not on the list anymore seeing as how there always seems to be a shortage, am suspicious about people jumping queues but recognise that Australia is a pretty attractive target for boat people.

My biggest annoyance are people who emmigrate but make little effort to integrate - eg don't bother learning the language, collect in cultural enclaves, etc.

The biggest problem are those who make extreme efforts to change Aus to reflect their original culture. If it was so good, why did they leave? I cringe when I read about English pollies who suggest that Sharia Law may be beneficial in some areas. Bullsh*t! Same thing can happen here. This is Australia. While we can grow in some ways (take the wide range of Asian food available these days) in others we should remain firm. Don't know how to stop this or fix it, only think we will be in trouble some day.

Cheers,
Adam

[rsser]

Re boat people, I'd bought the view that harsh treatment discouraged arrivals, but this morning a Prof of Public Policy from an Aus uni interviewed on ABC radio argued that there's good evidence that since the early 70s the only effective approach has been to negotiate bilateral agreements with the countries from which they come. Ie. control the problem at source or at least at the staging post. Those agreements have been struck with China, Cambodia and Vietnam.

[Sturdee]

Better ? Now just don't attack my spelling

I understood what you meant to say.

Peter.

[jimbur]

Re boat people, I'd bought the view that harsh treatment discouraged arrivals, but this morning a Prof of Public Policy from an Aus uni interviewed on ABC radio argued that there's good evidence that since the early 70s the only effective approach has been to negotiate bilateral agreements with the countries from which they come. Ie. control the problem at source or at least at the staging post. Those agreements have been struck with China, Cambodia and Vietnam.

The problem is the nature of the problem. It isn't just our problem but a world problem. We have it relatively easy compared with some. I was reading about Malta - less than half a million population, 1500 refugees on average arrive there every year (3000 in 2008).
Whenever a problem is complex and seemingly intractable the temptation is to embrace simplistic solutions especially if they sound good on the hustings. For example a smaller population sounds good but how many voters would accept control of the birth rate and all that it would entail?
Since the second world war we have been constantly engaged on the world stage whether through aid or military action. Like it or not we are part of the wider community of nations and that is where true solutions lie.
If we need any sense of proportion look at the people stuck at the world's airports for a few days because of volcanic ash. Big news. Keep them waiting for a few years and call them refugees and they'll soon slip out of the headlines until someone sees a vote in it.
I'm going back to the shed. I can handle things in there.
Jim

[rsser]

Couldn't agree more.

There's the immediate cause of a 'problem' and many more proximate causes. Dealing with the latter is the only logical approach but it also usually happens to be much more difficult and time-consuming.

[Black Cat]

We're thinking of introducing an immigration policy here in Tassie - all your blooming mainlanders who come over and try to change they way we live ...

If you live in an attractive location, others want to live there too. They move there, and then want to change it to suit what they are accustomed to. It is human nature. It was not so long ago SE Queensland was a nice remote, mosquito-infested spot you could take the kids to on a camping holiday. Now it is Las Vegas by Sea.

I think the problem is that the underpopulated area is viewed as fair game by the over-populated area, and those who then move there suddenly find the silence and solitude needs to be filled up with noise and cafes (or sharia law that lets them continue to do the things that make them feel comfortable).

[rsser]

It's ironic isn't it that the free traders bang on about free markets for goods, services and capital, but not in labour.

Yes, Tassie is v. attractive for many reasons, and your real estate prices are rising cos so many baby boomers have hit retirement age and are looking for a nice place for it, and your real estate is much cheaper on average than the mainland's.

[jimbur]

Thought Tassie had its own sanctions - called chilblains

[yashinskiy]

Even though I find myself rather a victim in the whole immigration game I think Australia is not doing to bad. Looking at all racial and immigration problems through out Europe and States, being cautious is the least Aussie govt can do. Talking with a few migration agents in different parts of the world I found out that Australia is "a leader" when it comes to solutions of immigration issues. Canada and UK are currently reviewing their immigration policies based on the results Australia has achieved.
Some mornings I make semolina porridge for my family and the key is to pour semolina slowly in a very slim stream otherwise it will form big hard lumps. That's essentially the tactic Australia sticks to by letting few people from here and few from there so they don't aggregate into separatist minorities. People who come from hard backgrounds are worth at least two locals. They'll work twice as hard for half the money. No offence to anyone but it is the fact I have lived it and I have witnessed it on numerous occasions. It's not always smooth though. Say in Sudanese culture men do not work, what are we going to do about that? We cannot reverse someone's cultural training in the matter of months. The only thing we can do is exercising tolerance and patience.
Comparing Australian government's policies to say Russian ones, aussies are doing bloody brilliant, fair enough still tonnes of work and ####-loads of mistakes. I'd like to stick to the words of the greatest:
"Be the change you would like to see in the world."

Not to oversimplify the problem, here is a solution: Say there is a limited amount of openings available to enter Australia. Candidates pass basic background checks etc and before they enter Australia, they sign a paper which states that they promise to be a good citizen. full stop. I lived in Logan for a while, some of the higher unemployment rates come from this areas, however you will see some of the dirtiest yards in town, where people spend the whole day at home. It isn't difficult to establish when people are putting in a solid effort into the community and therefore into the economy. And then after a check or two if the good citizen requirement not fulfilled (no effort to learn the language, find a job, basically settle), send them back. No need to meet any unreasonable benchmarks or excessive paperwork. Immigration dept hires thousands to answer the same questions and pointing people to more then unhelpful website I think there can be better use to those resources.
While we are at it I'll check some of the Aussies against good citizen requirement. You folks would agree there would be one to many spots to be filled by blood suckers on the dingy to be kicked away from the shore.

Though how would we know about good citizen if there isn't a ###### one somewhere.

Alexander

[Sebastiaan56]

"I think a much bigger threat is home grown terrorists such as those being trained in the mosques in our capital cities."

What ? Oh wait, I'm the racist ...

Damian,

I dont believe I have called you a racist, if I have I unreservedly apologise. There are racist elements in this debate (particularly in the right wing media) but as far as I know I have not personalised it nor would I do so. Ive spent to much time listening to Parliment to see any value in that tactic..... It means I would become like them and that is an appalling thought. Part of the reason I engage in these conversations is too learn, there are always points I havent considered or been aware of. Life is an infinite series of grey issues, my own positions included.

Aussie mosques are increasing inhabited by white folks as well as those for whom Islam is an indigenous religion. I dont think its any secret that most of the recent terror in the world has been done in the name of Islam. I dont think its any secret that Lakemba Mosque is a hot bed of radical Islamic teaching. I dont think it is any secret that the Islamic world is deeply divided along tribal and ideological lines and that the real threat to Sunnis is Shia and visa versa. Im not racist on this issue, I know Muslims of lots of ethnicities, but I have a strong dislike for the radical elements of Islam. The terror in UK, Denmark and Holland was from locally grown groups trained by radicals from the Middle East, not boat people. This is the biggest threat to Australia IMO. BTW with the internet this will also be impossible to stop.

Curiously and way off topic, the white Aussies who have been converted seem to adopt the same victim attitude as the indigenous Muslims. What are they teaching these people?

A bunch of unaccompanied 13-18 yo's are now imprisoned in Baxter. Labour's policy of the 70's lives. Lock up the children! These twerps give me the sh!ts.

While we are at it I'll check some of the Aussies against good citizen requirement. You folks would agree there would be one to many spots to be filled by blood suckers on the dingy to be kicked away from the shore.

[hughie]

Aussie mosques are increasing inhabited by white folks as well as those for whom Islam is an indigenous religion. I dont think its any secret that most of the recent . I dont think it is any secret that the Islamic world is deeply divided along tribal and ideological lines and that the real threat to Sunnis is Shia and visa versa. stop.

As a side note to this discussion. The major problem is that Islam has no central body of learning as we see with most other religious beliefs. They have the Koran and something called the Hadith. The Hadith is the daily out working of the teachings of the Koran and is effected by teacher, ethnicity and so on. Ie Wahabism the teachings of the Koranic reformer Abd Al-Wahhab 1703-1792 for example. The Sunni are the major proponents of this teaching and take his teachings to heart especially about Jihad and therefore are at odds with the Shia and the Sufi

But if we speak to other elements of Islam for instance, the Sufi their interpretation of Jihad is completely the opposite. Their view is that Jihad is ones personal spiritual battle to be a good follower of Allah.There are various shades all the way up and down for these two view points.

This flexibility allows all manner of doctrine to exist as per each imam's beliefs and desires. Much of which seems to be about money, power and control by an elite group over the masses.

Its for this reason we do not see much if any democracy in the middle east. Al Jazeera exist because of powerful backing.But its not viewed fondly by all in the region due to its version of ''Freedom of the Press" etc etc.

Our Political Correctness policies do nothing to prevent our problems in this area, in fact I think they foster them.

[rsser]

Yes. Christianity is not exactly a coherent body of theology and teachings either.

[damian]

We're thinking of introducing an immigration policy here in Tassie - all your blooming mainlanders who come over and try to change they way we live ...

If you live in an attractive location, others want to live there too. They move there, and then want to change it to suit what they are accustomed to. It is human nature. It was not so long ago SE Queensland was a nice remote, mosquito-infested spot you could take the kids to on a camping holiday. Now it is Las Vegas by Sea.

Yep and the southerners are at the daylight saving again!

Too many Melbournians in brisbane now...no one seems to have told them u turns at traffic lights are ILLEGAL up here....Just go home. You wanna live in melbourne, go live in melbourne...(my ladyfriend comes from geelong and I suspect the rest of the victorians regard meblourites about the same as we do).

I'm eyeing launceston, scottsdale actually.

Don't worry, if I move to tassie I'm prepared to grow extra digits in order to fit in

[damian]

Damian,

I dont believe I have called you a racist, if I have I unreservedly apologise.

No, I did. I did it specifically to remove that element of the discussion. It is not on any level a valid point to accuse the people disagreeing with you of being racist. It simply doesn't matter if they are, argue the point not the person. It is literally like accusing a woman of having no right to discuss childbirth because they are the ones that go through it.

Anyone who raises a valid point in a debate is entitled to. Address the point.

Aussie mosques are increasing inhabited by white folks as well as those for whom Islam is an indigenous religion. I dont think its any secret that most of the recent terror in the world has been done in the name of Islam. I dont think its any secret that Lakemba Mosque is a hot bed of radical Islamic teaching. I dont think it is any secret that the Islamic world is deeply divided along tribal and ideological lines and that the real threat to Sunnis is Shia and visa versa. Im not racist on this issue, I know Muslims of lots of ethnicities, but I have a strong dislike for the radical elements of Islam. The terror in UK, Denmark and Holland was from locally grown groups trained by radicals from the Middle East, not boat people. This is the biggest threat to Australia IMO. BTW with the internet this will also be impossible to stop.

2 things here:

1. The only reason we know about antisocial activities in mosques is because the very great majority of muslims aren't radical and are reporting the activity to the authorities.

2. The only reason the west percieves islam as more antisocial than christianity (for example) is because of the way our media report the world. The fact is christian governments and other organisations have been slaughtering no believers by the millions for decades. It never gets reported. Mind they don't wave a cross over the holy wars, but you can bet your bottom dollar that the US went into iraq because of religeon, not oil. If it had been oil why didn't they take the african nations that have nearly the same reserves and have been in greater chaos than the middle east for 20 years ?

I am no lover of islam. I grew up in the western suburbs of sydney and saw first hand just how disgusting moslems and arabs could be, but I also saw that not everyone in those groups behaved that way. Like christianity and judaism you can use it to justify utterly disgusting behavious or it can be a conduit to a better life.

Hughie:

I have to disagree. The jews apart from being heavily factionalised rely heavily on the teachings of each rabbi. On the other hand if you take the catholic church which is strictly heirarchial and demands absolute obedience they are hardly without sin.

My point is I don't think the structure of the church is necessarily the problem

[hughie]

I have to disagree. The Jews apart from being heavily factionalised rely heavily on the teachings of each rabbi. On the other hand if you take the catholic church which is strictly hierarchical and demands absolute obedience they are hardly without sin.

But both beliefs you mentioned do not allow the extremist view point that some are preaching from the mosque

My point is I don't think the structure of the church is necessarily the problem

Indeed its not the structure, but rather a lack of it that allows wide swings in interpretation.. Its true we have seen some pretty weird teachings in both Judaism and Christianity over the years . But it has always been when brought to the light roundly condemned. They may continue but outside the belief structure they profess to belong to.
Not something we see very often, if at all by the moderates of Islam. However that maybe in part a media issue as well of speaking up and no doubt retribution here plays a big part to silence the moderates as well.

Christianity is not exactly a coherent body of theology and teachings either

By and large Christian teachings are similar enough for all believe to obtain entry into Heaven and or not as the case maybe. Some thing is not possible with wide fluctuations in teachings or schools of thought of the belief in question.

The point I am making is that the fluctuations or variances in interpretation are wide enough to encompass just what ever the situation demands. But if you a central body on knowledge call it doctrine then you have a guidance system of checks. That can recognize rogues and extremists and deal with them in accordance to the teachings etc